Discussion:
[I] Naming cats - and odd feline behaviour!
(too old to reply)
Clare
2005-06-16 16:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Well, after nearly three weeks, I have finally named my cats. The boy
is now Mustrum, being firmly behind big dinners - even to the extent of
nicking other people's, and the girl is Esme. Well, they are getting
on, with the odd squabble and playfight, and she gives as good as she
gets. She could have been a Daisy, but I thought the Discworld theme
was better in the end.

However, I have noticed a worrying habit that one of them has. I don't
know which because it happened while I was out, but someone feline has
been eating the cotton ends - plastic and all - off some cotton buds!
Needless to say I was concerned for a while and removed the cotton buds
out of feline reach, but so far no ill effects have presented
themselves....

Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?
Kimberley Verburg
2005-06-16 18:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare
However, I have noticed a worrying habit that one of them has. I don't
know which because it happened while I was out, but someone feline has
been eating the cotton ends - plastic and all - off some cotton buds!
Needless to say I was concerned for a while and removed the cotton buds
out of feline reach, but so far no ill effects have presented
themselves....
Then they're probably fine. On the other hand...I'd double-check any dark
corners in the house, especially corners full of wires. And don't walk
around with bare feet!
--
Kimberley Verburg
***@lspace.org
Brian Wakeling
2005-06-17 00:45:12 UTC
Permalink
In a speech called
Post by Clare
Well, after nearly three weeks, I have finally named my
cats. The boy is now Mustrum, being firmly behind big
dinners - even to the extent of nicking other people's, and
the girl is Esme. Well, they are getting on, with the odd
squabble and playfight, and she gives as good as she gets.
She could have been a Daisy, but I thought the Discworld
theme was better in the end.
However, I have noticed a worrying habit that one of them
has. I don't know which because it happened while I was
out, but someone feline has been eating the cotton ends -
plastic and all - off some cotton buds! Needless to say I
was concerned for a while and removed the cotton buds out
of feline reach, but so far no ill effects have presented
themselves....
Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?
If it looks sufficiently like anything they vaguely remember
as being food, cats will try to eat it. Eventually, this boils
down to absolutely everything within a five mile radius of the
house.
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
Cycling home 12 miles every night after theatre gives you a
lot of time for introspection.
I don't want introspection, I want a bloody car!
Sofia
2005-06-17 22:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by Clare
Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?
If it looks sufficiently like anything they vaguely remember
as being food, cats will try to eat it. Eventually, this boils
down to absolutely everything within a five mile radius of the
house.
I'd agree with this! Hubby's cat, Tibby, had this craving for all the
neighbours pets, (rabbits, hamsters, hedgehogs, and most small birds in
the area). All I ever remember my little mongrel destroying though, was my
teddy bears when he and hubby used to play tug-of-war with them.

I suggest in this case, you should either get yourself a scratching post
for your cats to play with - or substitute them for a dog.


Sofie
Werehatrack
2005-06-24 01:35:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:45:12 +0100, "Brian Wakeling"
Post by Brian Wakeling
If it looks sufficiently like anything they vaguely remember
as being food, cats will try to eat it. Eventually, this boils
down to absolutely everything within a five mile radius of the
house.
With the possible exception of an opossum and, under certain
circumstances, an abandoned Yugo[1].




[1] There is, of course, essentially no other kind of Yugo at this
point, so the adjective may be superfluous.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
2005-06-25 16:46:09 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, in article
Post by Werehatrack
With the possible exception of an opossum and, under certain
circumstances, an abandoned Yugo[1].
[1] There is, of course, essentially no other kind of Yugo at this
point, so the adjective may be superfluous.
I must concur that I've not seen any Yugos on the road for years now. At
one time (early-to-mid-1980s) this car achieved the dubious distinction
of 50% depreciation in the first year from new. One could tell how dodgy
they were: the Arfur Dalys of this world usually operate in the second-
hand car market, but some of them set up operations to sell these "cars"
new as well.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} ***@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657
Ross
2005-06-26 01:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
On Friday, in article
Post by Werehatrack
With the possible exception of an opossum and, under certain
circumstances, an abandoned Yugo[1].
[1] There is, of course, essentially no other kind of Yugo at this
point, so the adjective may be superfluous.
I must concur that I've not seen any Yugos on the road for years now.
Oh, Gods. Yugos. The cars designed for people who thought Ladas were
much too posh and far too expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if they
were looked down on by Trabant owners, too; at least Trabbies would
go, even if they were made of cardboard.
Post by Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
one time (early-to-mid-1980s) this car achieved the dubious distinction
of 50% depreciation in the first year from new.
That little? You do surprise me. I didn't think they lasted that long!
--
Ross, in Lincoln
Reply-to address will bounce; replace "junk-trap" with "me" for e-mail
Arthur Hagen
2005-06-26 02:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Oh, Gods. Yugos. The cars designed for people who thought Ladas were
much too posh and far too expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if they
were looked down on by Trabant owners, too; at least Trabbies would
go, even if they were made of cardboard.
The Yugo isn't that bad -- it's the improved *export* model of the
Zastava Fiat 128.

If you were really poor but needed a car, it's more likely that you'd go
for brands like Moskwitz, Skoda, DAF or Vespa.

Regards,
--
*Art
mcv
2005-06-17 09:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare
However, I have noticed a worrying habit that one of them has. I don't
know which because it happened while I was out, but someone feline has
been eating the cotton ends - plastic and all - off some cotton buds!
Needless to say I was concerned for a while and removed the cotton buds
out of feline reach, but so far no ill effects have presented
themselves....
Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?
Bits of plastic bags are a popular snack around here. Especially if it's
a kind of plastic that makes noise when you touch it.


mcv.
Clare
2005-06-17 16:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Clare
However, I have noticed a worrying habit that one of them has. I don't
know which because it happened while I was out, but someone feline has
been eating the cotton ends - plastic and all - off some cotton buds!
Needless to say I was concerned for a while and removed the cotton buds
out of feline reach, but so far no ill effects have presented
themselves....
Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?
Bits of plastic bags are a popular snack around here. Especially if it's
a kind of plastic that makes noise when you touch it.
We've already had this - the used foil wrappers from Whiskas cat food
have been removed from the dustbin and shredded. Not even the idea of
the flavour has been left on them! Also a container that at one time
had chicken in it was stolen from the bin in the same raid and stored
behind some seed compost until four this morning - when it was brought
out for further excited attention.

In the ensuing ruck, both cats wound themselves up to fever pitch,
starting fights and breaking a bowl. That woke me up, and I had to
separate them using the front room and the stairs. Esme spent about 90
minutes scratching the door and yowling. Needless to say I didn't get
any more sleep... They were best mates again this morning at
breakfast!

Tonight I am taking them outside for the first time. I think last
night was down to cabin fever, and I need sleep! Hopefully we can have
a meaningful discussion about road safety and the bonus of coming home
when I shout "Treat". This is already a winner, although Mustrum gets
a bit giddy around anything vaguely food related. :-)
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
2005-06-17 23:37:44 UTC
Permalink
On 17 Jun, in article
Post by Clare
In the ensuing ruck, both cats wound themselves up to fever pitch,
starting fights and breaking a bowl. That woke me up, and I had to
separate them using the front room and the stairs.
A high-pressure cold-water hose is far more efficient means of effecting
separation.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} ***@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657
PDoc
2005-06-19 22:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
On 17 Jun, in article
Post by Clare
In the ensuing ruck, both cats wound themselves up to fever pitch,
starting fights and breaking a bowl. That woke me up, and I had to
separate them using the front room and the stairs.
A high-pressure cold-water hose is far more efficient means of
effecting separation.
But throwing the whole front room, along with the stairs too, is a display
worthy of "Shock and Awe". That'll teach 'em. And if it dosn't, you still
got the loft, kitchen, and the loo as a last resort.
--
PDoc
Alchemist at large, no accidents in the lab since March...
http://www.cohesic.co.uk/blog/
Clare
2005-06-24 16:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by PDoc
Post by Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
On 17 Jun, in article
Post by Clare
In the ensuing ruck, both cats wound themselves up to fever pitch,
starting fights and breaking a bowl. That woke me up, and I had to
separate them using the front room and the stairs.
A high-pressure cold-water hose is far more efficient means of
effecting separation.
But throwing the whole front room, along with the stairs too, is a display
worthy of "Shock and Awe". That'll teach 'em. And if it dosn't, you still
got the loft, kitchen, and the loo as a last resort.
I think I'll save them for a special occasion! <GRIN>

A week on, they are both allowed out, which has significantly reduced
the feline cabin fever quotient. Mustrum is the chief expedition
leader. Esme gets to the gate, panics and then goes back in to sit
behind the cat-flap anxiously waiting for Mustrum. Sometimes she sits
so close to it he has to squeeze through lop-sided. Great fun to
watch!

Last Sunday he brought home some cooked chicken - I told him it would
have been more believable [that he had hunted it down] if it had been
raw. Then last night he brought in a song-thrush - dead, of course,
and a real shame because they are rare and I like birds that eat slugs
and snails. I had to bury it in the back yard, next to the one and
only mouse my old cat ever managed to catch!

So tonight I'm buying Mustrum a collar and bell. There will be no
apologies or replies to anyone who thinks this is cruel! The collar
will be safely adjusted and suitably smart for a wizard, and he will
still get to chase things. He doesn't need the extra food, and the
local bird population needs all the help it can get.
Paul E. Jamison
2005-06-25 00:38:03 UTC
Permalink
"Clare" <***@medphysics.leeds.ac.uk> wrote in message news:***@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[snipperage]
Post by Clare
So tonight I'm buying Mustrum a collar and bell. There will be no
apologies or replies to anyone who thinks this is cruel! The collar
will be safely adjusted and suitably smart for a wizard, and he will
still get to chase things. He doesn't need the extra food, and the
local bird population needs all the help it can get.
No flames, but I'd suggest a breakaway collar, in case Mustrum catches it on
something - say, a bit of shrubbery - he won't choke himself to death in the
inevitable fit of panic. Of course, he may learn to remove it on purpose,
but at least he'll still be alive to look smug about it.

Paul
--
"Who reads, learns, lives the Ferret Way becomes keeper
of light, ennobling outer worlds from one within."
- a prophecy from the Ancients
Clare
2005-06-28 16:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul E. Jamison
[snipperage]
Post by Clare
So tonight I'm buying Mustrum a collar and bell. There will be no
apologies or replies to anyone who thinks this is cruel! The collar
will be safely adjusted and suitably smart for a wizard, and he will
still get to chase things. He doesn't need the extra food, and the
local bird population needs all the help it can get.
No flames, but I'd suggest a breakaway collar, in case Mustrum catches it on
something - say, a bit of shrubbery - he won't choke himself to death in the
inevitable fit of panic. Of course, he may learn to remove it on purpose,
but at least he'll still be alive to look smug about it.
Are you psychic? I found a collar with a safety catch and a smart
silver bell. He didn't seem to mind it, even when Tim started singing
"Jingle Bells" every time he walked!

The night I fitted the collar (Saturday) he went out in the dark for a
wander. Next morning, the collar was gone! On Sunday, after Tim's
birthday party, we got back to mine to find that there were feathers
all over the front room. There is no sign of beak, feet, entrails,
blood, etc Both cats still managed to eat all their tea. There have
been no suspicious sicked-up featherballs or dazed birds perched on
curtain-rails...

Should I treat bird-eating as self-sufficiency, or does it only count
as a snack?
Post by Paul E. Jamison
--
"Who reads, learns, lives the Ferret Way becomes keeper
of light, ennobling outer worlds from one within."
- a prophecy from the Ancients
CCA
2005-06-28 16:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Clare wrote:

[Cats]
Post by Clare
Should I treat bird-eating as self-sufficiency, or does it only count
as a snack?
Definitely a snack, as they probably won't do it all that often.
Good to hear that they're settling in :-)
CCA
Paul E. Jamison
2005-06-28 23:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare
Post by Paul E. Jamison
[snipperage]
Post by Clare
So tonight I'm buying Mustrum a collar and bell. There will be no
apologies or replies to anyone who thinks this is cruel! The collar
will be safely adjusted and suitably smart for a wizard, and he will
still get to chase things. He doesn't need the extra food, and the
local bird population needs all the help it can get.
No flames, but I'd suggest a breakaway collar, in case Mustrum catches it on
something - say, a bit of shrubbery - he won't choke himself to death in the
inevitable fit of panic. Of course, he may learn to remove it on purpose,
but at least he'll still be alive to look smug about it.
Are you psychic? I found a collar with a safety catch and a smart
silver bell. He didn't seem to mind it, even when Tim started singing
"Jingle Bells" every time he walked!
The night I fitted the collar (Saturday) he went out in the dark for a
wander. Next morning, the collar was gone! On Sunday, after Tim's
birthday party, we got back to mine to find that there were feathers
all over the front room. There is no sign of beak, feet, entrails,
blood, etc Both cats still managed to eat all their tea. There have
been no suspicious sicked-up featherballs or dazed birds perched on
curtain-rails...
Should I treat bird-eating as self-sufficiency, or does it only count
as a snack?
For some cats - the feral kind - critter-eating is self-sufficiency, and I
suspect that any cat with outdoor access is just one remove from its wild
ancestors, or at least its wild first cousins. However, I suspect that if
you were to wave an open can of catfood around, Mustrum would opine that
birds were just a snack, before he dug in.

And it was just a guess based on the general intelligence level of felines
(ie, higher than we give them credit).
--
"Who reads, learns, lives the Ferret Way becomes keeper
of light, ennobling outer worlds from one within."
- a prophecy from the Ancients
John Ewing
2005-06-29 22:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare
Post by Paul E. Jamison
[snipperage]
Post by Clare
So tonight I'm buying Mustrum a collar and bell. There will be no
apologies or replies to anyone who thinks this is cruel! The collar
will be safely adjusted and suitably smart for a wizard, and he will
still get to chase things. He doesn't need the extra food, and the
local bird population needs all the help it can get.
No flames, but I'd suggest a breakaway collar, in case Mustrum catches it on
something - say, a bit of shrubbery - he won't choke himself to death in the
inevitable fit of panic. Of course, he may learn to remove it on purpose,
but at least he'll still be alive to look smug about it.
Are you psychic? I found a collar with a safety catch and a smart
silver bell. He didn't seem to mind it, even when Tim started singing
"Jingle Bells" every time he walked!
The night I fitted the collar (Saturday) he went out in the dark for a
wander. Next morning, the collar was gone! On Sunday, after Tim's
birthday party, we got back to mine to find that there were feathers
all over the front room. There is no sign of beak, feet, entrails,
blood, etc Both cats still managed to eat all their tea. There have
been no suspicious sicked-up featherballs or dazed birds perched on
curtain-rails...
Should I treat bird-eating as self-sufficiency, or does it only count
as a snack?
How many feathers did you find? What size were they? I mean - a few
small feathers, and a sparrow may have been devoured, but if the
feathers were a metre long, then one has to ask - has any neighbour
lost a peacock?

I still remember my cat trying to grab something that looked like a
buzzard :-)

John
--
John Ewing
Glaschu / Glasgow
Alba / Scotland
mcv
2005-06-30 14:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
Post by Clare
Post by Paul E. Jamison
[snipperage]
Post by Clare
So tonight I'm buying Mustrum a collar and bell. There will be no
apologies or replies to anyone who thinks this is cruel! The collar
will be safely adjusted and suitably smart for a wizard, and he will
still get to chase things. He doesn't need the extra food, and the
local bird population needs all the help it can get.
No flames, but I'd suggest a breakaway collar, in case Mustrum catches it on
something - say, a bit of shrubbery - he won't choke himself to death in the
inevitable fit of panic. Of course, he may learn to remove it on purpose,
but at least he'll still be alive to look smug about it.
Are you psychic? I found a collar with a safety catch and a smart
silver bell. He didn't seem to mind it, even when Tim started singing
"Jingle Bells" every time he walked!
The night I fitted the collar (Saturday) he went out in the dark for a
wander. Next morning, the collar was gone! On Sunday, after Tim's
birthday party, we got back to mine to find that there were feathers
all over the front room. There is no sign of beak, feet, entrails,
blood, etc Both cats still managed to eat all their tea. There have
been no suspicious sicked-up featherballs or dazed birds perched on
curtain-rails...
Should I treat bird-eating as self-sufficiency, or does it only count
as a snack?
How many feathers did you find? What size were they? I mean - a few
small feathers, and a sparrow may have been devoured, but if the
feathers were a metre long, then one has to ask - has any neighbour
lost a peacock?
I still remember my cat trying to grab something that looked like a
buzzard :-)
I vaguely recall a story about a kitten jumping on a pheasant and the
pheasant flying away. Still carrying the kitten.

No idea if that happened in a story, in real life or in someone's
imagination, though.


mcv.
Terry Gareza
2005-07-01 10:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by John Ewing
Post by Clare
Post by Paul E. Jamison
[snipperage]
Post by Clare
So tonight I'm buying Mustrum a collar and bell. There will be no
apologies or replies to anyone who thinks this is cruel! The collar
will be safely adjusted and suitably smart for a wizard, and he will
still get to chase things. He doesn't need the extra food, and the
local bird population needs all the help it can get.
No flames, but I'd suggest a breakaway collar, in case Mustrum catches it on
something - say, a bit of shrubbery - he won't choke himself to death in the
inevitable fit of panic. Of course, he may learn to remove it on purpose,
but at least he'll still be alive to look smug about it.
Are you psychic? I found a collar with a safety catch and a smart
silver bell. He didn't seem to mind it, even when Tim started singing
"Jingle Bells" every time he walked!
The night I fitted the collar (Saturday) he went out in the dark for a
wander. Next morning, the collar was gone! On Sunday, after Tim's
birthday party, we got back to mine to find that there were feathers
all over the front room. There is no sign of beak, feet, entrails,
blood, etc Both cats still managed to eat all their tea. There have
been no suspicious sicked-up featherballs or dazed birds perched on
curtain-rails...
Should I treat bird-eating as self-sufficiency, or does it only count
as a snack?
How many feathers did you find? What size were they? I mean - a few
small feathers, and a sparrow may have been devoured, but if the
feathers were a metre long, then one has to ask - has any neighbour
lost a peacock?
I still remember my cat trying to grab something that looked like a
buzzard :-)
I vaguely recall a story about a kitten jumping on a pheasant and the
pheasant flying away. Still carrying the kitten.
No idea if that happened in a story, in real life or in someone's
imagination, though.
mcv.
I once got to watch a cat stalking a deer. Our cat Shade was going tiptoe,
tiptoe, tiptoe towards this deer who was calmly munching grass. Shade crouches
down, ready to spring. The deer realizes there's something over yonder, turns
and ambles over to investigate. The deer gets her nose to within half a meter
of Shade, who suddenly realizes this is *one* *BIG* *mouse*, turns tail and
runs into the house.

I was laughing so hard it hurt. :-D
--
Please help my friend get her business going:
http://www.cafepress.com/rowanchisholm

Evil Overlord Rule #136: No matter how many shorts we have in the system, my
guards will be instructed to treat every surveillance camera malfunction as a
full-scale emergency.
John Ewing
2005-07-01 19:49:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:11:52 -0700, Terry Gareza <***@example.com>
wrote:

[snip]
Post by Terry Gareza
I once got to watch a cat stalking a deer. Our cat Shade was going tiptoe,
tiptoe, tiptoe towards this deer who was calmly munching grass. Shade crouches
down, ready to spring. The deer realizes there's something over yonder, turns
and ambles over to investigate. The deer gets her nose to within half a meter
of Shade, who suddenly realizes this is *one* *BIG* *mouse*, turns tail and
runs into the house.
Mouse, moose, what's the odds? :-)

John
--
John Ewing
Glaschu / Glasgow
Alba / Scotland
Lesley Weston
2005-07-02 02:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
[snip]
Post by Terry Gareza
I once got to watch a cat stalking a deer. Our cat Shade was going tiptoe,
tiptoe, tiptoe towards this deer who was calmly munching grass. Shade crouches
down, ready to spring. The deer realizes there's something over yonder, turns
and ambles over to investigate. The deer gets her nose to within half a meter
of Shade, who suddenly realizes this is *one* *BIG* *mouse*, turns tail and
runs into the house.
Mouse, moose, what's the odds? :-)
They're all truly tremendous meeces.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Swedish Chef
2005-06-30 18:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
I still remember my cat trying to grab something that looked like a
buzzard :-)
We had one that went after a woodpecker, whilst it was pecking... managed
ot stun it into silence : )
--
---
Swedish Chef
The only thing I know, is that I don't know
Werehatrack
2005-06-24 01:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Clare
However, I have noticed a worrying habit that one of them has. I don't
know which because it happened while I was out, but someone feline has
been eating the cotton ends - plastic and all - off some cotton buds!
Needless to say I was concerned for a while and removed the cotton buds
out of feline reach, but so far no ill effects have presented
themselves....
Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?
Bits of plastic bags are a popular snack around here. Especially if it's
a kind of plastic that makes noise when you touch it.
Ours chew on the ends of the rolls of packing tape in the dispensers
that I use when shipping things off.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
Midgardette
2005-06-25 03:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Werehatrack
Post by mcv
Bits of plastic bags are a popular snack around here. Especially if it's
a kind of plastic that makes noise when you touch it.
Ours chew on the ends of the rolls of packing tape in the dispensers
that I use when shipping things off.
You're lucky. Our two Siamese darlings open drawers and carry off rolled
socks. I think it reminds them of kittens. The socks end up all over...with
holes chewed in them of course. Oh, and only the black dress socks not the
white sports ones. You have to have standards.
mcv
2005-06-27 14:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Post by Werehatrack
Post by mcv
Bits of plastic bags are a popular snack around here. Especially if it's
a kind of plastic that makes noise when you touch it.
Ours chew on the ends of the rolls of packing tape in the dispensers
that I use when shipping things off.
You're lucky. Our two Siamese darlings open drawers and carry off rolled
socks. I think it reminds them of kittens. The socks end up all over...with
holes chewed in them of course. Oh, and only the black dress socks not the
white sports ones. You have to have standards.
My cat is a bit more civilised than that. He likes to drink tea.
From a teapot. (Cold, though.) Water, on the other hand, he prefers
directly from the tap. I suspect he wants to look like me.


mcv.
Midgardette
2005-06-28 02:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by Werehatrack
Post by mcv
Bits of plastic bags are a popular snack around here. Especially if it's
a kind of plastic that makes noise when you touch it.
Ours chew on the ends of the rolls of packing tape in the dispensers
that I use when shipping things off.
You're lucky. Our two Siamese darlings open drawers and carry off rolled
socks. I think it reminds them of kittens. The socks end up all over...with
holes chewed in them of course. Oh, and only the black dress socks not the
white sports ones. You have to have standards.
My cat is a bit more civilised than that. He likes to drink tea.
From a teapot. (Cold, though.) Water, on the other hand, he prefers
directly from the tap. I suspect he wants to look like me.
mcv.
Wouldn't it be more civilized to teach him to use a teacup (with extended
pinkie of course)? Any old moggie can use a saucer but a china cup says so
much more about one's deportment. Remember Teach's admonitions?

Midgardette
mcv
2005-06-28 13:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by Werehatrack
Post by mcv
Bits of plastic bags are a popular snack around here. Especially if it's
a kind of plastic that makes noise when you touch it.
Ours chew on the ends of the rolls of packing tape in the dispensers
that I use when shipping things off.
You're lucky. Our two Siamese darlings open drawers and carry off rolled
socks. I think it reminds them of kittens. The socks end up all over...with
holes chewed in them of course. Oh, and only the black dress socks not the
white sports ones. You have to have standards.
My cat is a bit more civilised than that. He likes to drink tea.
From a teapot. (Cold, though.) Water, on the other hand, he prefers
directly from the tap. I suspect he wants to look like me.
Wouldn't it be more civilized to teach him to use a teacup (with extended
pinkie of course)? Any old moggie can use a saucer but a china cup says so
much more about one's deportment. Remember Teach's admonitions?
He only drinks from saucers if he's really thirsty or if it's milk.
In the past I've also given him water in a glass to get him to drink
the stuff.

I'll see if I have a tea cup somewhere (I always drink from a mug),
although I'd still have to pour it for him. And actually the tea is
meant for me, not him. The problem is that sometimes I don't finish
a pot completely, and as soon as I'm doing something else, he starts
spooning the tea up with his paw.


mcv.
Laura Melton
2005-06-28 23:48:33 UTC
Permalink
[cat drinking out of teapot]
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Wouldn't it be more civilized to teach him to use a teacup (with extended
pinkie of course)? Any old moggie can use a saucer but a china cup says so
much more about one's deportment. Remember Teach's admonitions?
He only drinks from saucers if he's really thirsty or if it's milk.
In the past I've also given him water in a glass to get him to drink
the stuff.
I'll see if I have a tea cup somewhere (I always drink from a mug),
although I'd still have to pour it for him. And actually the tea is
meant for me, not him. The problem is that sometimes I don't finish
a pot completely, and as soon as I'm doing something else, he starts
spooning the tea up with his paw.
The cat I live with [1] does this too. If I have a fresh glass of
water, he'll walk straight over to it and stick his head in. If he
can't reach the water that way (usually because I've drunk it down too
far already), he'll stick his paw in to see how far down the water is.

It would be cute if it weren't so annoying. I have taken to drinking
out of a Nalgene bottle most of the time so that I don't have to protect
a water glass.


Laurabelle

[1] Not my cat, even as much as one may own a cat.
--
ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
Midgardette
2005-06-29 00:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
My cat is a bit more civilised than that. He likes to drink tea.
From a teapot. (Cold, though.) Water, on the other hand, he prefers
directly from the tap. I suspect he wants to look like me.
Wouldn't it be more civilized to teach him to use a teacup (with extended
pinkie of course)? Any old moggie can use a saucer but a china cup says so
much more about one's deportment. Remember Teach's admonitions?
He only drinks from saucers if he's really thirsty or if it's milk.
In the past I've also given him water in a glass to get him to drink
the stuff.
I'll see if I have a tea cup somewhere (I always drink from a mug),
although I'd still have to pour it for him. And actually the tea is
meant for me, not him. The problem is that sometimes I don't finish
a pot completely, and as soon as I'm doing something else, he starts
spooning the tea up with his paw.
I know some folks are forced to use a mug, although it offends my
sensibilities (grin). At work I'm required to use a plastic (shudder) mug
with a snap down lid. (Seems computers haven't learned how to swim yet.
Haven't reached the level of Hex)

How on Disc did your cat learn to remove the lid?

Midgardette
)O( The Turtle Moves!
mcv
2005-06-29 09:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
My cat is a bit more civilised than that. He likes to drink tea.
From a teapot. (Cold, though.) Water, on the other hand, he prefers
directly from the tap. I suspect he wants to look like me.
Wouldn't it be more civilized to teach him to use a teacup (with extended
pinkie of course)? Any old moggie can use a saucer but a china cup says so
much more about one's deportment. Remember Teach's admonitions?
He only drinks from saucers if he's really thirsty or if it's milk.
In the past I've also given him water in a glass to get him to drink
the stuff.
I'll see if I have a tea cup somewhere (I always drink from a mug),
although I'd still have to pour it for him. And actually the tea is
meant for me, not him. The problem is that sometimes I don't finish
a pot completely, and as soon as I'm doing something else, he starts
spooning the tea up with his paw.
I know some folks are forced to use a mug, although it offends my
sensibilities (grin).
Why? A mug can hold more tea, which is good.
Post by Midgardette
At work I'm required to use a plastic (shudder) mug
with a snap down lid. (Seems computers haven't learned how to swim yet.
Haven't reached the level of Hex)
Plastic is bad. Computers are safe from tea if you learn not to knock
is over.
Post by Midgardette
How on Disc did your cat learn to remove the lid?
I don't use lids. I always use or misplace them. Besides, they're
plastic, which is technically bad.


mcv.
Midgardette
2005-06-30 01:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
He only drinks from saucers if he's really thirsty or if it's milk.
In the past I've also given him water in a glass to get him to drink
the stuff.
I'll see if I have a tea cup somewhere (I always drink from a mug),
although I'd still have to pour it for him. And actually the tea is
meant for me, not him. The problem is that sometimes I don't finish
a pot completely, and as soon as I'm doing something else, he starts
spooning the tea up with his paw.
I know some folks are forced to use a mug, although it offends my
sensibilities (grin).
Why? A mug can hold more tea, which is good.
The teapot is used for holding the tea. One uses the cup to drink from.
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
At work I'm required to use a plastic (shudder) mug
with a snap down lid. (Seems computers haven't learned how to swim yet.
Haven't reached the level of Hex)
Plastic is bad. Computers are safe from tea if you learn not to knock
is over.
Ahh there's the rub. Seems my cow-orkers haven't yet learned this and I'm
forced to abide by rules based on their limitations.
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
How on Disc did your cat learn to remove the lid?
I don't use lids. I always use or misplace them. Besides, they're
plastic, which is technically bad.
I see. Which side are you on in the china versus metal issue?

Midgardette
)O( The Turtle Moves
mcv
2005-06-30 14:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
He only drinks from saucers if he's really thirsty or if it's milk.
In the past I've also given him water in a glass to get him to drink
the stuff.
I'll see if I have a tea cup somewhere (I always drink from a mug),
although I'd still have to pour it for him. And actually the tea is
meant for me, not him. The problem is that sometimes I don't finish
a pot completely, and as soon as I'm doing something else, he starts
spooning the tea up with his paw.
I know some folks are forced to use a mug, although it offends my
sensibilities (grin).
Why? A mug can hold more tea, which is good.
The teapot is used for holding the tea. One uses the cup to drink from.
You can drink more from a mug.
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
How on Disc did your cat learn to remove the lid?
I don't use lids. I always use or misplace them. Besides, they're
plastic, which is technically bad.
I see. Which side are you on in the china versus metal issue?
My pots are glass, which is cheap and good and certainly better than
metal.


mcv.
Arthur Hagen
2005-06-30 17:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
My pots are glass, which is cheap and good and certainly better than
metal.
I read that as "grass" at first. Which made sense, for a different kind
of pot :-)

Regards,
--
*Art
Midgardette
2005-07-01 01:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
I know some folks are forced to use a mug, although it offends my
sensibilities (grin).
Why? A mug can hold more tea, which is good.
The teapot is used for holding the tea. One uses the cup to drink from.
You can drink more from a mug.
Can't argue with that. More is good. (^:"
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
How on Disc did your cat learn to remove the lid?
I don't use lids. I always use or misplace them. Besides, they're
plastic, which is technically bad.
I see. Which side are you on in the china versus metal issue?
My pots are glass, which is cheap and good and certainly better than
metal.
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
Post by mcv
mcv.
Pardon me, but are you the same mcv who has art work on the L-space site?

Midgardette
The Turtle Moved...and I lost my place.
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-01 10:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).

Adrian.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-01 12:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her
aluminium teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference
between milk first and milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I believe you're exactly wrong. Since you don't see the actual milk,
you can't judge how *much* milk you've put in -- how can you tell
whether it's 4cc or 6cc? If you pour it in the cup first, you can
easier estimate how much milk you've put in (though it makes it harder
to estimate how much *tea* you've put in.)

However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.

As for the colour, the colour changes just as much whether you pour milk
in tea or tea in milk. If anything, there's less need for stirring if
you pour the milk in first. If you pour the milk in last, the milk
often goes straight down and mixes with tea at the middle of the cup
instead of what's on the surface. So you may think you've put in less
milk than what you actually have.

What matters to me is that the pot *and* cup should be pre-heated, the
milk should not be fridge cold, and it should be a cup, not a mug.
Serving people luke warm tea is an insult.

If you have guests, additional rules apply:
- Don't let any bag tags hang out of the tea pot. At least keep the
*illusion* that you actually made tea.
- Don't ask people whether they want tea and then serve them herbal tea
(i.e. anything not made with real tea leaves). It's like asking people
whether they want a drink, and then serve them carrot juice. While it
technically qualifies, it's a "no".
- Do not place biscuits on the saucer. Dirty an extra plate.

To Americans:
- There's no such thing as a tea mug.
- Dessert spoons are not tea spoons.
- Lumps of white sugar *can* be found at the grocery store.
- Real milk, however, can *not*. Either get ultra-pasteurized milk
without the usual additives or substitute it with light coffee cream or
half-and-half. Just let people know.
- Tea cups, like all other drinking vessels should be placed to the
*right* of the plate.
- Remember that what you call a biscuit, the rest of the world calls a
scone.
- Polite guests won't ask when they want more, and won't help
themselves even if you tell them to beforehand. You have to ask them,
or send the tray around whenever you see someone is out of something.

Regards,
--
*Art
Ingvar
2005-07-01 12:59:30 UTC
Permalink
"Arthur Hagen" <***@broomstick.com> writes:

[ SNIP ]
Post by Arthur Hagen
- There's no such thing as a tea mug.
No, my yellow half-litre cups are cups, not mugs.

They're absolutely perfect in size for a nice warming cuppa of lapsang
souchong (often, but not always, superior), gunpowder or kokei-cha.

Anything less and you need to refill too often. 3-4 cups see you wake
up in the morning, it does.

//Ingvar (safety notice: never *ever* mix kokei-cha and lapsang)
--
Q: What do you call a Discworld admin?
A: Chelonius Monk
Bigjobs
2005-07-01 13:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her
aluminium teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference
between milk first and milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I believe you're exactly wrong. Since you don't see the actual milk,
you can't judge how *much* milk you've put in -- how can you tell
whether it's 4cc or 6cc? If you pour it in the cup first, you can
easier estimate how much milk you've put in (though it makes it harder
to estimate how much *tea* you've put in.)
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.
As for the colour, the colour changes just as much whether you pour milk
in tea or tea in milk. If anything, there's less need for stirring if
you pour the milk in first. If you pour the milk in last, the milk
often goes straight down and mixes with tea at the middle of the cup
instead of what's on the surface. So you may think you've put in less
milk than what you actually have.
What matters to me is that the pot *and* cup should be pre-heated, the
milk should not be fridge cold, and it should be a cup, not a mug.
Serving people luke warm tea is an insult.
- Don't let any bag tags hang out of the tea pot. At least keep the
*illusion* that you actually made tea.
- Don't ask people whether they want tea and then serve them herbal tea
(i.e. anything not made with real tea leaves). It's like asking people
whether they want a drink, and then serve them carrot juice. While it
technically qualifies, it's a "no".
- Do not place biscuits on the saucer. Dirty an extra plate.
- There's no such thing as a tea mug.
- Dessert spoons are not tea spoons.
- Lumps of white sugar *can* be found at the grocery store.
- Real milk, however, can *not*. Either get ultra-pasteurized milk
without the usual additives or substitute it with light coffee cream or
half-and-half. Just let people know.
- Tea cups, like all other drinking vessels should be placed to the
*right* of the plate.
- Remember that what you call a biscuit, the rest of the world calls a
scone.
- Polite guests won't ask when they want more, and won't help
themselves even if you tell them to beforehand. You have to ask them,
or send the tray around whenever you see someone is out of something.
I'm coming round for a cup of tea sometime arthur.

No milk, half a sugar please.
--
Bigjobs
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-02 18:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bigjobs
I'm coming round for a cup of tea sometime arthur.
No milk, half a sugar please.
One heffalump tea coming up!
--
*Art
Midgardette
2005-07-02 22:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Bigjobs
I'm coming round for a cup of tea sometime arthur.
No milk, half a sugar please.
One heffalump tea coming up!
--
*Art
tea he he he he
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-01 13:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her
aluminium teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference
between milk first and milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I believe you're exactly wrong. Since you don't see the actual milk,
you can't judge how *much* milk you've put in -- how can you tell
whether it's 4cc or 6cc?
By knowing how much you put in, I mean knowing that you've put the
same amount in this time as you have on previous occasions (relative
to the other ingredients). I don't actually mean being able to name
the quantity.

It's true that you *can* put a precise, measured amount of milk in to
begin with, but it's not worth the effort. Out of tea (or coffee, for
that matter), water and milk, the third is the hardest item to control
how much you put in. Therefore, optimal control is achieved by putting
the water/tea in first, and then adding the milk until the mixture has
the desired appearance. I don't like to put the milk in first and then
add the other ingredients to achieve the desired appearance, because
if I get the milk wrong to begin with then the result will not fill
the mug elegantly.

A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup of
the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less wise
and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of cup,
which is not a mug. :-)

Adrian.
Len Oil
2005-07-02 10:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup of
the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less wise
and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of cup,
which is not a mug. :-)
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
mcv
2005-07-02 17:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Oil
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup of
the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less wise
and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of cup,
which is not a mug. :-)
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
Yet not every donut can hold as much tea as a mug.


mcv.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-02 18:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Oil
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup
of the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less
wise and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of
cup, which is not a mug. :-)
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
Not all of them:

http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm

Regards,
--
*Art
mcv
2005-07-03 16:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Len Oil
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup
of the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less
wise and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of
cup, which is not a mug. :-)
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm
Oh wow. This is brilliant. I'd want one if the outer chamber was actually
possible to clean (which you'd expect, considering it's the same as the
easily cleaned inner chamber).


mcv.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-03 17:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Len Oil
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm
Oh wow. This is brilliant. I'd want one if the outer chamber was
actually possible to clean (which you'd expect, considering it's the
same as the easily cleaned inner chamber).
Well, you only have to wash one side...
--
*Art
Lesley Weston
2005-07-04 18:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Len Oil
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup
of the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less
wise and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of
cup, which is not a mug. :-)
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm
Oh wow. This is brilliant. I'd want one if the outer chamber was actually
possible to clean (which you'd expect, considering it's the same as the
easily cleaned inner chamber).
This is neat, yes. But it's still a doughnut - only one hole.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Len Oil
2005-07-03 20:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Len Oil
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup
of the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less
wise and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of
cup, which is not a mug. :-)
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm
Would you believe I knew that was coming? ;)

I was going to waffle on about topological spheres that are mugs (with
handles, but just '7'-shaped joined to the container only at the top and
not closed) and you could get silly if you include 'puzzle-mugs'[1], but
that wouldn't have made as good a OLF...

[1] http://www.nemmelgebmurr.com/vintage/engmug.html, though admittedly
rarely used to drink hot drinks... ;)
Lesley Weston
2005-07-02 18:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len Oil
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
A mug is a type of cup. If you drink tea/coffee out of a mug - as
wise and sensible people do - then you *are* in fact enjoying a cup of
the liquid, except that you are enjoying *more* of it than less wise
and sensible people who drink from a different, smaller type of cup,
which is not a mug. :-)
Topologically, they're all donuts... ;)
As is the person drinking out of them. Kennedy must have known this
important fact when he said "Ich bin ein berliner".
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Michael J. Schülke
2005-07-02 21:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
As is the person drinking out of them. Kennedy must have known this
important fact when he said "Ich bin ein berliner".
Except that Berliners (the pancakes) aren't donut-shaped.

Michael
Lesley Weston
2005-07-03 18:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael J. Schülke
Post by Lesley Weston
As is the person drinking out of them. Kennedy must have known this
important fact when he said "Ich bin ein berliner".
Except that Berliners (the pancakes) aren't donut-shaped.
I didn't know they were pancakes! The story always goes that they're
doughnuts. Berliners (the people) are doughnut-shaped, though, same as
everybody else.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Michael J. Schülke
2005-07-03 19:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
I didn't know they were pancakes!
Well, they aren't -- but the people in Berlin call them Pfannkuchen
(pancakes), and proceed to call ordinary pancakes Eierkuchen (eggcakes).
Post by Lesley Weston
The story always goes that they're doughnuts.
The dough and the mode of preparation are about the same, but the shape
isn't:

Loading Image...

Michael
Richard Bos
2005-07-04 15:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael J. Schülke
Post by Lesley Weston
As is the person drinking out of them. Kennedy must have known this
important fact when he said "Ich bin ein berliner".
Except that Berliners (the pancakes) aren't donut-shaped.
But Berliner (the people) are, if you discount the nostrils.

Richard
mcv
2005-07-01 15:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?

Tea with milk is fine for kids, but kids also drink sugar with chemicals,
and I wouldn't propose that for adults either.
Post by Arthur Hagen
What matters to me is that the pot *and* cup should be pre-heated, the
milk should not be fridge cold, and it should be a cup, not a mug.
Serving people luke warm tea is an insult.
Mugs are great. They hold more tea, which is good.

I agree that the pot should be pre-heated. The mug doesn't need to be.
The milk should remain in the fridge.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Don't let any bag tags hang out of the tea pot. At least keep the
*illusion* that you actually made tea.
There's nothing illusionary about making real tea with a bag. It's
true that some of the very best teas don't come in bags, but that
doesn't automatically make every bagless tea superior.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Don't ask people whether they want tea and then serve them herbal tea
(i.e. anything not made with real tea leaves). It's like asking people
whether they want a drink, and then serve them carrot juice. While it
technically qualifies, it's a "no".
Completely agreed here. Also, don't serve tea that tastes like fruit
unless the guest has explicitly said he likes that sort of stuff.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Do not place biscuits on the saucer. Dirty an extra plate.
Agreed. In fact, don't bother with saucers at all. As long as you don't
suffer from Parkinson's, a coaster is all you need.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Lumps of white sugar *can* be found at the grocery store.
And should be left there. Tea should be drunken pure and without
additives. Except for children or people not used to proper tea.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Real milk, however, can *not*. Either get ultra-pasteurized milk
without the usual additives or substitute it with light coffee cream or
half-and-half. Just let people know.
See above. No additives in tea. Certainly not milk. Except for
children.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Tea cups, like all other drinking vessels should be placed to the
*right* of the plate.
Except if the person is left-handed, ofcourse. No need to discriminate
against lefties, en it would not be proper if someone accidentally
drunk the tea of the person to the left of him.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Remember that what you call a biscuit, the rest of the world calls a
scone.
Biscuit, scone, as long as there's cookies.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Polite guests won't ask when they want more, and won't help
themselves even if you tell them to beforehand. You have to ask them,
or send the tray around whenever you see someone is out of something.
Polite hosts offer more, but polite guests will ask if the host forgets.


mcv.
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-01 15:33:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio*
of milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're
on a very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
I have also saved the dissenting views for later use.
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Ingvar
2005-07-01 15:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio*
of milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're
on a very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
I have also saved the dissenting views for later use.
I think this is the time where I go "Uh, oh, am I dissenting or not? I
better not mention milk!".

//Ingvar
--
When the SysAdmin answers the phone politely, say "sorry", hang up and
run awaaaaay!
Informal advice to users at Karolinska Institutet, 1993-1994
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-01 15:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingvar
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio*
of milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless
you're on a very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
I have also saved the dissenting views for later use.
I think this is the time where I go "Uh, oh, am I dissenting or not? I
better not mention milk!".
Hey, now, I didn't weigh in on one side or the other. I just thought the
whole thing was interesting. I sometimes have milke in my tea, but more
usually without, since I tend to drink semi-exotic stuff like Dragon Well
and Silver Needle. When I have a stronger black tea, I sometimes add milk
and sugar.
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Ingvar
2005-07-01 16:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by Ingvar
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio*
of milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless
you're on a very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
I have also saved the dissenting views for later use.
I think this is the time where I go "Uh, oh, am I dissenting or not? I
better not mention milk!".
Hey, now, I didn't weigh in on one side or the other. I just thought the
whole thing was interesting. I sometimes have milke in my tea, but more
usually without, since I tend to drink semi-exotic stuff like Dragon Well
and Silver Needle. When I have a stronger black tea, I sometimes add milk
and sugar.
I seldom have sugar in tea. In fact, I have sugar in my tea just about
as often as I have milk (and that's when I drink Masala Chai; heat
milk, add cardamom seeds and possibly some other spices; drop in
loose-leaf black tea and a shockload of sugar; let this infuse for a
while and strain). Mostly because neither sugar nor milk work well
with soked teas or green teas and taht's (mostly) what I drink,
tea-wise.

Ah,m yes, I'm also lactose-intolerant, so I don't (normally) consider
milk as food, but rather as antifood.

//Ingvar
--
A routing decision is made at every routing point, making local hacks
hard to permeate the network with.
Graycat
2005-07-01 20:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
Because it cools the tea so you can drink it without waiting
all afternoon for it to cool by itself.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
mcv
2005-07-01 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graycat
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
Because it cools the tea so you can drink it without waiting
all afternoon for it to cool by itself.
Never heard of patience?

If you're really in that much of a hurry, I suppose using a small
cup is acceptable. It will cool a lot faster that way.


mcv.
Graycat
2005-07-02 21:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Graycat
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
Because it cools the tea so you can drink it without waiting
all afternoon for it to cool by itself.
Never heard of patience?
Yeah, but tea is not a big deal for me. So I see no point
in making it so that I can enjoy it with great ceremony half
an hour later. I make it so I can enjoy it now, when I've
made it. Also I hardly ever make tea since plain cold
tapwater is what I usually prefer.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-02 18:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graycat
Post by mcv
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
Because it cools the tea so you can drink it without waiting
all afternoon for it to cool by itself.
That's why you serve tea in a tea cup and not a mug. The tea cup is
designed to give the tea a large surface area compared to the volume,
serving the dual purpose of letting tea lovers inhale the aroma, and
letting occasional drinkers who aren't used to steaming hot beverages
blow on the surface to cool it down.

A mug defeats both purposes.

Regards,
--
*Art
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-04 14:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graycat
Post by mcv
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful. Why
would you possibly want too ruin a perfectly good drink like tea by
putting milk in it?
Because it cools the tea so you can drink it without waiting
all afternoon for it to cool by itself.
I think making the flavour more to my taste is a more important
reason. :-)

Adrian.
Lesley Weston
2005-07-02 18:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.
I find all this talk of putting milk in tea rather distasteful.
That's because you're not English [1]

<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Don't ask people whether they want tea and then serve them herbal tea
(i.e. anything not made with real tea leaves). It's like asking people
whether they want a drink, and then serve them carrot juice. While it
technically qualifies, it's a "no".
Completely agreed here. Also, don't serve tea that tastes like fruit
unless the guest has explicitly said he likes that sort of stuff.
Absolutely! Shirley, if a guest is so uncivilised as to ask for such a
thing, the proper response is "I'm sorry, I don't have any."
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Do not place biscuits on the saucer. Dirty an extra plate.
Agreed. In fact, don't bother with saucers at all. As long as you don't
suffer from Parkinson's, a coaster is all you need.
Philistine! Tea is served in smallish cups made of thin china with saucers
and matching side-plates. But not the really small plates, and you can't use
little cake-forks, either. Alternatively, tea may be served in thick white
pint mugs and accompanied by bacon sarnies. Either method is correct, but
nothing else is.

<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Remember that what you call a biscuit, the rest of the world calls a
scone.
Biscuit, scone, as long as there's cookies.
And scones. And cake. And little sandwiches made with Gentlemens' Relish or
cucumber. Or bacon sarnies.

[1] Or from the rest of the UK, but in this context "English" is the proper
word.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Brian Wakeling
2005-07-03 00:00:16 UTC
Permalink
In a speech called
<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Remember that what you call a biscuit, the rest of the
world calls a scone.
Biscuit, scone, as long as there's cookies.
And scones. And cake. And little sandwiches made with
Gentlemens' Relish or cucumber. Or bacon sarnies.
I am really glad you know how to use an apostrophe.
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
"Tea is no substitute for potatoes."
- Terry Pratchett 20/8/03
Lister
2005-07-03 07:19:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 01:00:16 +0100, "Brian Wakeling"
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by Lesley Weston
And scones. And cake. And little sandwiches made with
Gentlemens' Relish or cucumber. Or bacon sarnies.
I am really glad you know how to use an apostrophe.
Ahh, that had me confused for a bit there too :)
--
How can I meet Kylie Minogue?
Lesley Weston
2005-07-03 18:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Remember that what you call a biscuit, the rest of the
world calls a scone.
Biscuit, scone, as long as there's cookies.
And scones. And cake. And little sandwiches made with
Gentlemens' Relish or cucumber. Or bacon sarnies.
I am really glad you know how to use an apostrophe.
I can't believe I did that! Excuse me while I blush.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-02 18:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Polite guests won't ask when they want more, and won't help
themselves even if you tell them to beforehand. You have to ask
them, or send the tray around whenever you see someone is out of
something.
Polite hosts offer more, but polite guests will ask if the host forgets.
Um, no. That's exactly wrong. The whole point of being polite is to
not make demands on your host.

If you really want more, a fairly common polite way of /not asking/ is
to take the empty cup or plate and hold it in your hands. Sooner or
later a forgetful host will then wonder why they keep on holding an
empty vessel in their hands, and the light will click on.

If everyone present know the host, you can of course ask. Different
rules for politeness apply then. Also, if you know the host to be rude
or ignorant, there's no shame in asking. And, of course, if you see all
others help themselves from the samovar, there's no point in you not
doing the same. :-)

Regards,
--
*Art
mcv
2005-07-03 16:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Polite guests won't ask when they want more, and won't help
themselves even if you tell them to beforehand. You have to ask
them, or send the tray around whenever you see someone is out of
something.
Polite hosts offer more, but polite guests will ask if the host forgets.
Um, no. That's exactly wrong. The whole point of being polite is to
not make demands on your host.
If you really want more, a fairly common polite way of /not asking/ is
to take the empty cup or plate and hold it in your hands. Sooner or
later a forgetful host will then wonder why they keep on holding an
empty vessel in their hands, and the light will click on.
How is that not making demonds on the host? It's just a more subtle and
meaner way to do it. I prefer openness and honesty over suffering in
silence and making the host feel guilty about it.
Post by Arthur Hagen
If everyone present know the host, you can of course ask. Different
rules for politeness apply then. Also, if you know the host to be rude
or ignorant, there's no shame in asking. And, of course, if you see all
others help themselves from the samovar, there's no point in you not
doing the same. :-)
It depends a lot on the situation. Where I live, it's common for young
people (in their 20s and 30s) to politely point out the location of the
fridge and let everybody help themselves. People my parents' age tend
to get seriously stressed when they have a lot of guests, because they
feel they need to take care of absolutely everything, which just isn't
very reasonable when there are lots of guests. Everybody doing their
bit just works out much better, and people will get the chance to
actually talk to the host, which is good.


mcv.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-03 18:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
If you really want more, a fairly common polite way of /not asking/
is to take the empty cup or plate and hold it in your hands. Sooner
or later a forgetful host will then wonder why they keep on holding
an empty vessel in their hands, and the light will click on.
How is that not making demonds on the host? It's just a more subtle
and meaner way to do it. I prefer openness and honesty over suffering
in silence and making the host feel guilty about it.
It allows the host to save face in several ways:
- By letting the host ask the guests whether they want more, the host's
apparent manners are preserved.
- Other guests might want more too; it's not all about you. A subtle
reminder to the host allows that to happen with (statistically) half the
guests not noticing before the host does.
- It saves the host from having to admit it if he's run out of tea (or
other consumables), which would be a major faux pas. (If you don't have
more than enough, don't even start serving.)
Post by mcv
It depends a lot on the situation. Where I live, it's common for young
people (in their 20s and 30s) to politely point out the location of
the fridge and let everybody help themselves.
Pointing guests to your fridge is an unreasonable demand on them, and
you can't expect them to know what's fridge etiquette in your house.
How long can the fridge door stay open? How many of something can you
take? Is everything in the fridge fair game? Do you put leftovers back
in the fridge? What if the guest doesn't feel clean enough to handle
food that eventually will be eaten by others?

What if the guest's manners won't allow him to help himself from your
fridge? Should he starve for sticking to etiquette? Would you even
notice, or would you erroneously believe him when he told you he wasn't
hungry?

As for people helping themselves, which some young people seem to do
even when not being being asked to, it's just plain rude. Help yourself
to anything in my house, and you'll never see the inside of it again.
Even if it's out in the open, you don't help yourself unless you've been
asked to. Don't touch those pretzels in the bowl on the table -- they
may be decoration, they may be poisoned, and, most importantly, they may
be meant for others.

Good intentions don't absolve bad manners.
Post by mcv
People my parents' age tend to get seriously stressed when they have
a lot of guests, because they feel they need to take care of
absolutely everything, which just isn't very reasonable when there
are lots of guests.
If there's more people than you can handle, and you don't have dedicated
serving personnel, you appoint people to help you. If there's none
suitable among the guests, you shouldn't have invited them all in the
first place.
Post by mcv
Everybody doing their bit just works out much better, and people will
get the chance to actually talk to the host, which is good.
With people running in and out of the kitchen all the time, I doubt it's
any more efficient. It sure will leave the guests less time to speak to
*each other*, which is why you invited all of them anyhow, isn't it?

Yes, I know the etiquette rules change over time. No, I don't have to
like it, nor abide by it in my house.

Regards,
--
*Art
mcv
2005-07-03 23:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Arthur Hagen
If you really want more, a fairly common polite way of /not asking/
is to take the empty cup or plate and hold it in your hands. Sooner
or later a forgetful host will then wonder why they keep on holding
an empty vessel in their hands, and the light will click on.
How is that not making demands on the host? It's just a more subtle
and meaner way to do it. I prefer openness and honesty over suffering
in silence and making the host feel guilty about it.
- By letting the host ask the guests whether they want more, the host's
apparent manners are preserved.
I'm probably not quite as concerned with saving face as you are. As long
as everybody has the food and drink they want and is enjoying themselves,
everything is alright. Manners should not stand in the way of reaching
this goal.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Other guests might want more too; it's not all about you. A subtle
reminder to the host allows that to happen with (statistically) half the
guests not noticing before the host does.
If you ask, the host can also take that opportunity to offer everybody
else another drink. And if you stand up to get something from the fridge,
it's polite to ask if anyone else needs something.
Post by Arthur Hagen
- It saves the host from having to admit it if he's run out of tea (or
other consumables), which would be a major faux pas. (If you don't have
more than enough, don't even start serving.)
If the host doesn't have anything to drink, I'd rather know about it than
thirstily waiting until the host finally decides to offer me something.
Besides, there's always water.
Post by Arthur Hagen
It depends a lot on the situation. Where I live, it's common for young
people (in their 20s and 30s) to politely point out the location of
the fridge and let everybody help themselves.
Pointing guests to your fridge is an unreasonable demand on them, and
you can't expect them to know what's fridge etiquette in your house.
Nothing unreasonable about it. They get more control over their own
drinks, which is good.
Post by Arthur Hagen
How long can the fridge door stay open?
As long as necessary to get what you need, and no longer.
Post by Arthur Hagen
How many of something can you take?
As many as you need.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Is everything in the fridge fair game?
Usually only drinks, unless the host specifies otherwise.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Do you put leftovers back in the fridge?
Yes, usually. Depending on the situation. Is the fridge is far away
and a certain bottle is very popular, it can be practical to take it
with you so others won't have to walk that far for the duration of
that bottle.
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest doesn't feel clean enough to handle
food that eventually will be eaten by others?
It's mostly about drinks. Food that requires specific handling is
usually still handled by the host. If you don't feel capable of handling
food, leave it to the host or to guests who do.
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest's manners won't allow him to help himself from your
fridge?
Usually when somebody goes to the fridge, he asks if anyone else needs
something, so even lazy people can get a drink.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Should he starve for sticking to etiquette?
Nobody should starve, that's the whole point. There's nothing wrong
with the host asking offering people food and drink. He is, after all,
still in charge of all that.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Would you even
notice, or would you erroneously believe him when he told you he wasn't
hungry?
If somebody actually says he's not hungry, I have no reason not to
believe him.
Post by Arthur Hagen
As for people helping themselves, which some young people seem to do
even when not being being asked to, it's just plain rude. Help yourself
to anything in my house, and you'll never see the inside of it again.
You shouldn't do it in a complete stranger's house, ofcourse. Ask for
the host to invite you, or follow the example of people who know the
host and his house better than you do.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Even if it's out in the open, you don't help yourself unless you've been
asked to. Don't touch those pretzels in the bowl on the table -- they
may be decoration, they may be poisoned, and, most importantly, they may
be meant for others.
If they are, you should say so specifically. If it's in a bowl on the
table, people will eat it.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Good intentions don't absolve bad manners.
I consider it bad manners to put food on the table that's not meant to
be eaten. The exception is ofcourse the case of an actual dinner. In
that case it is polite to wait until everything and everybody is ready.
The host may want to give people the opportunity for saying grace or
something like that.
Post by Arthur Hagen
People my parents' age tend to get seriously stressed when they have
a lot of guests, because they feel they need to take care of
absolutely everything, which just isn't very reasonable when there
are lots of guests.
If there's more people than you can handle, and you don't have dedicated
serving personnel, you appoint people to help you. If there's none
suitable among the guests, you shouldn't have invited them all in the
first place.
Nonsense. The more the merrier.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Everybody doing their bit just works out much better, and people will
get the chance to actually talk to the host, which is good.
With people running in and out of the kitchen all the time, I doubt it's
any more efficient. It sure will leave the guests less time to speak to
*each other*, which is why you invited all of them anyhow, isn't it?
On the contrary. The movement of people means they will encounter people
they haven't talked to yet, and with big parties, you may even meet
someone at the fridge and strike up a conversation there.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Yes, I know the etiquette rules change over time. No, I don't have to
like it, nor abide by it in my house.
True. You determine the rules in your house, but others determine the
rules in their house, and these are the rules of practical ettiquette
that I have observed over the years.


mcv.
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-04 00:57:43 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by mcv
It depends a lot on the situation. Where I live, it's common for
young people (in their 20s and 30s) to politely point out the
location of the fridge and let everybody help themselves.
Pointing guests to your fridge is an unreasonable demand on them, and
you can't expect them to know what's fridge etiquette in your house.
Some of the bits below are not objective and transparent, and it's not
entirely a generational issue. I'm in my early thrirties, and I think . . .
Post by mcv
Nothing unreasonable about it. They get more control over their own
drinks, which is good.
Post by Arthur Hagen
How long can the fridge door stay open?
As long as necessary to get what you need, and no longer.
. . . that this is easily subject to differences of opinion. My opinion
differs considerably from that of my seven-year-old son, for example.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
How many of something can you take?
As many as you need.
Supposing I *really* need all of your beer? Or whatever it is. Or maybe I
just want it. Sure, that's bad manners on my part, but you get that
occasionally.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Is everything in the fridge fair game?
Usually only drinks, unless the host specifies otherwise.
Again, not an instinctual thing. It's training. Local custom, sometimes just
house rules.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest doesn't feel clean enough to handle
food that eventually will be eaten by others?
It's mostly about drinks. Food that requires specific handling is
usually still handled by the host. If you don't feel capable of
handling food, leave it to the host or to guests who do.
I guess it doesn't matter if you're the host and you only invite people you
know well, but I don't think I'd be completely comfortable with the
self-assessment skills of some of the people I've been at gatherings with.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest's manners won't allow him to help himself from your
fridge?
Usually when somebody goes to the fridge, he asks if anyone else needs
something, so even lazy people can get a drink.
Lazy. Hmm. Where I grew up, one did not ask for anything as a guest in
someone's home. I still can't manage it unless it's the home of a close
friend.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Should he starve for sticking to etiquette?
Nobody should starve, that's the whole point. There's nothing wrong
with the host asking offering people food and drink. He is, after all,
still in charge of all that.
Post by Arthur Hagen
Would you even
notice, or would you erroneously believe him when he told you he
wasn't hungry?
If somebody actually says he's not hungry, I have no reason not to
believe him.
Read Amy Tan's "The Language of Discretion." It's not limited to Asian
cultures, but some people would consider it extremely rude to accept the
first explicit offer, even.

I suppose it's okay to play by these rules if you only have friends from
your own culture, but it seems limiting.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
As for people helping themselves, which some young people seem to do
even when not being being asked to, it's just plain rude. Help
yourself to anything in my house, and you'll never see the inside of
it again.
You shouldn't do it in a complete stranger's house, ofcourse. Ask for
the host to invite you, or follow the example of people who know the
host and his house better than you do.
The problem there is you can't be quite sure whether you're following the
preferred example. Maybe the guy who heads for the drinks is the brother of
the host's sig, other and was invited as a courtesy and the host wishes like
hell the jerk would quit rummaging the fridge.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Even if it's out in the open, you don't help yourself unless you've
been asked to. Don't touch those pretzels in the bowl on the table
-- they may be decoration, they may be poisoned, and, most
importantly, they may be meant for others.
If they are, you should say so specifically. If it's in a bowl on the
table, people will eat it.
I set out a bowl of pretzels for a handful of people I'm expecting at 7. You
drop over (or come over by arrangment for some purpose) at 6:30 and I forget
to hide the pretzels really quickly.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Good intentions don't absolve bad manners.
I consider it bad manners to put food on the table that's not meant to
be eaten. The exception is ofcourse the case of an actual dinner. In
that case it is polite to wait until everything and everybody is
ready. The host may want to give people the opportunity for saying
grace or something like that.
Gosh, I need to find some other solution for my fruit storage needs. We keep
the apples in a bowl. I don't mind if you take one, but I'd consider it
polite to ask first.
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by mcv
People my parents' age tend to get seriously stressed when they have
a lot of guests, because they feel they need to take care of
absolutely everything, which just isn't very reasonable when there
are lots of guests.
If there's more people than you can handle, and you don't have
dedicated serving personnel, you appoint people to help you. If
there's none suitable among the guests, you shouldn't have invited
them all in the first place.
Nonsense. The more the merrier.
Not my party philosophy. There can definitely be too many people. <shudder>
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Yes, I know the etiquette rules change over time. No, I don't have
to like it, nor abide by it in my house.
True. You determine the rules in your house, but others determine the
rules in their house, and these are the rules of practical ettiquette
that I have observed over the years.
They're far from universal, that's all. And I'm much happier with Art's
style than the other way, but maybe that can be explained by my profession.
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
mcv
2005-07-04 10:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by mcv
It depends a lot on the situation. Where I live, it's common for
young people (in their 20s and 30s) to politely point out the
location of the fridge and let everybody help themselves.
Pointing guests to your fridge is an unreasonable demand on them, and
you can't expect them to know what's fridge etiquette in your house.
Some of the bits below are not objective and transparent, and it's not
entirely a generational issue. I'm in my early thrirties, and I think . . .
It may also depend a lot on national culture. We Dutch tend to be a lot
more practical and less formal than Germans and Brits.

For example, I've heard that in German work environments, bosses like
to be addressed as "Herr" + lastname, and people with titles prefer
to be addressed by them. Dutch address almost everybody by their first
name. When we meet someone new for the first time, we address them as
"meneer" + last name, then they say introduce themselves by their
first name, and the rest of the meeting continues on a first name
basis. Unless it is extremely formal.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Nothing unreasonable about it. They get more control over their own
drinks, which is good.
Post by Arthur Hagen
How long can the fridge door stay open?
As long as necessary to get what you need, and no longer.
. . . that this is easily subject to differences of opinion. My opinion
differs considerably from that of my seven-year-old son, for example.
It is polite to know what you want before you open the fridge, and if
what you want isn't there, quickly decide on a reasonable alternative.
Just like thinking for 15 minutes when someone asks you what you want
to drink isn't very polite.

I very much approve of teaching seven-year-old sons that fridges
shouldn't be open longer than necessary.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
How many of something can you take?
As many as you need.
Supposing I *really* need all of your beer? Or whatever it is. Or maybe I
just want it. Sure, that's bad manners on my part, but you get that
occasionally.
I don't really understand how this can be a realistic situation. Starting
the evening by drinking all the beer in the house is always very bad
manners. Even when getting drunk is the whole point of the party, there's
bound to be others who want their share. But in situations like that,
there's bound to be enough beer that nobody can drink it all at once
anyway.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Is everything in the fridge fair game?
Usually only drinks, unless the host specifies otherwise.
Again, not an instinctual thing. It's training. Local custom, sometimes just
house rules.
Taking only the obvious drinks and not eating stuff that looks like the
host might want to save it for later, actually is pretty instinctual.
If you're not sure, take only what you're sure of, and then follow the
example set by others. Although usually the host will quickly resolve
any kind of ambiguity.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest's manners won't allow him to help himself from your
fridge?
Usually when somebody goes to the fridge, he asks if anyone else needs
something, so even lazy people can get a drink.
Lazy. Hmm. Where I grew up, one did not ask for anything as a guest in
someone's home. I still can't manage it unless it's the home of a close
friend.
I don't think there was any problem with asking for anything when I grew
up, but nowadays it rarely happens. Only when the host clearly forgot
something, like getting someone his first drink or a piece of cake or
something like that. When the host does his job well, there's no need to
ask, but when he forgets something (always a possibility with human
hosts), I don't think there's anything wrong with asking.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Would you even
notice, or would you erroneously believe him when he told you he
wasn't hungry?
If somebody actually says he's not hungry, I have no reason not to
believe him.
Read Amy Tan's "The Language of Discretion." It's not limited to Asian
cultures, but some people would consider it extremely rude to accept the
first explicit offer, even.
Personally I think it's more rude to lie when explicitly asked. Although
when the guest seems shy, uncomfortable or hungy, the host will often
ask "are you sure?" when the guest says he doesn't need anything.
Post by Stacie Hanes
I suppose it's okay to play by these rules if you only have friends from
your own culture, but it seems limiting.
With different cultures, openness and honesty is even more important.
Any perceived rudeness can more easily be explained away by the
cultural differences.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
As for people helping themselves, which some young people seem to do
even when not being being asked to, it's just plain rude. Help
yourself to anything in my house, and you'll never see the inside of
it again.
You shouldn't do it in a complete stranger's house, ofcourse. Ask for
the host to invite you, or follow the example of people who know the
host and his house better than you do.
The problem there is you can't be quite sure whether you're following the
preferred example. Maybe the guy who heads for the drinks is the brother of
the host's sig, other and was invited as a courtesy and the host wishes like
hell the jerk would quit rummaging the fridge.
If the host wishes so, he can always say so. And if he doesn't want to
do so in public, he can intercept the jerk on his way to the fridge or
point this out to the sister (who, knowing her brother, should probably
have been aware of the rules in his house anyway).
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Even if it's out in the open, you don't help yourself unless you've
been asked to. Don't touch those pretzels in the bowl on the table
-- they may be decoration, they may be poisoned, and, most
importantly, they may be meant for others.
If they are, you should say so specifically. If it's in a bowl on the
table, people will eat it.
I set out a bowl of pretzels for a handful of people I'm expecting at 7. You
drop over (or come over by arrangment for some purpose) at 6:30 and I forget
to hide the pretzels really quickly.
In such a situation it's easy to point out that you'll be having visitors
in half an hour and the pretzels are for them.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by mcv
People my parents' age tend to get seriously stressed when they have
a lot of guests, because they feel they need to take care of
absolutely everything, which just isn't very reasonable when there
are lots of guests.
If there's more people than you can handle, and you don't have
dedicated serving personnel, you appoint people to help you. If
there's none suitable among the guests, you shouldn't have invited
them all in the first place.
Nonsense. The more the merrier.
Not my party philosophy. There can definitely be too many people. <shudder>
There can be, but big parties can also be lots of fun.
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
Yes, I know the etiquette rules change over time. No, I don't have
to like it, nor abide by it in my house.
True. You determine the rules in your house, but others determine the
rules in their house, and these are the rules of practical ettiquette
that I have observed over the years.
They're far from universal, that's all. And I'm much happier with Art's
style than the other way, but maybe that can be explained by my profession.
It never hurts to be able to adapt to other people's rules. I'm pretty
flexible, and as long as people make clear what they expect from me,
I'm always happy to oblige.


mcv.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-04 03:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest's manners won't allow him to help himself from your
fridge?
Usually when somebody goes to the fridge, he asks if anyone else needs
something, so even lazy people can get a drink.
That has nothing to do with laziness, but with etiquette and manners
that has been hammered into people to the point that it takes a *lot* to
break them. I'd rather find an excuse to leave early and go to the
nearest 7-eleven to get a drink than help myself from someone's fridge.

What *I* find lazy is a host who won't even attempt to be a host.

What's nice about etiquette and manners is that when everybody follow
the same rules, it becomes transparent and saves time and energy; people
know what to expect, and what to do when, and can feel confident and
relaxed.

If you and your friends are fine with your relaxed rules, that's good.
I can't help but fear that you'd have a hard time switching over to the
more formal rules, and may not feel as relaxed in a new and unfamiliar
setting as someone who'd automatically follow decorum without even
thinking. There's nothing snobbish about that; it just helps everyone
get along without feeling uncomfortable.
Of course, your more relaxed rules may one day become the standard
etiquette, and phonix and ebonics might become lingua franca, but we're
not there yet.

Regards,
--
*Art
mcv
2005-07-04 09:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest's manners won't allow him to help himself from your
fridge?
Usually when somebody goes to the fridge, he asks if anyone else needs
something, so even lazy people can get a drink.
That has nothing to do with laziness, but with etiquette and manners
that has been hammered into people to the point that it takes a *lot* to
break them. I'd rather find an excuse to leave early and go to the
nearest 7-eleven to get a drink than help myself from someone's fridge.
What *I* find lazy is a host who won't even attempt to be a host.
But what *I* consider bad manners is letting the host slave all day
to supply everybody with drinks and not giving him/her a chance to
sit down, relax and have a char with his guests.

In my opinion, a good host will get you your first drink, a piece of
cake, if there is any, and then give instructions on how to deal with
food and drink the rest of the evening.
Post by Arthur Hagen
What's nice about etiquette and manners is that when everybody follow
the same rules, it becomes transparent and saves time and energy; people
know what to expect, and what to do when, and can feel confident and
relaxed.
But etiquette also needs to be practical. Otherwise people will change
it, and a new set of easily understood, transparent rules will replace
it.
Post by Arthur Hagen
If you and your friends are fine with your relaxed rules, that's good.
I can't help but fear that you'd have a hard time switching over to the
more formal rules, and may not feel as relaxed in a new and unfamiliar
setting as someone who'd automatically follow decorum without even
thinking. There's nothing snobbish about that; it just helps everyone
get along without feeling uncomfortable.
I have no problem with a host asking me if I want anything to drink,
and I certainly won't open someone's fridge unless I know it's alright.
I don't think I'd have all that much trouble adapting to your kind of
formal etiquette, although I obviously wouldn't know all the tiny
details, and would expect non-obvious rules of the etiquette to be
explained to me. To keep things transparent.

I would, however, feel very uncomfortable if the host was working hard
all evening and unable to sit down, relax and have a chat. Because in
the end, having visitors is about having a good time and being able to
talk to people, and not about showing off how perfect your manners are.

Generally, though, it's good to be flexible and adaptive. for example,
my grandmother certainly wouldn't have to get up to get a drink. It
is usually not that hard to figure out how to behave in a certain
environment, unless the rules are highly detailed, formal, specific,
and worst of all, unspoken.


mcv.
Graycat
2005-07-04 11:34:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 23:24:02 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by mcv
Post by Arthur Hagen
What if the guest's manners won't allow him to help himself from your
fridge?
Usually when somebody goes to the fridge, he asks if anyone else needs
something, so even lazy people can get a drink.
That has nothing to do with laziness, but with etiquette and manners
that has been hammered into people to the point that it takes a *lot* to
break them. I'd rather find an excuse to leave early and go to the
nearest 7-eleven to get a drink than help myself from someone's fridge.
What *I* find lazy is a host who won't even attempt to be a host.
What's nice about etiquette and manners is that when everybody follow
the same rules, it becomes transparent and saves time and energy; people
know what to expect, and what to do when, and can feel confident and
relaxed.
If you and your friends are fine with your relaxed rules, that's good.
I can't help but fear that you'd have a hard time switching over to the
more formal rules, and may not feel as relaxed in a new and unfamiliar
setting as someone who'd automatically follow decorum without even
thinking. There's nothing snobbish about that; it just helps everyone
get along without feeling uncomfortable.
Of course, your more relaxed rules may one day become the standard
etiquette, and phonix and ebonics might become lingua franca, but we're
not there yet.
I think it's fairly obvious you two are talking about
different kinds of parties, so obviously there will be
different ettiquette rules.

Example:

1. I and my boyfriend have a party for our friends and
aquaintances. We would then buy enough wine to serve
everyone we are expecting in case they didn't bring their
own, but not enough to get everyone drunk. We would also
supply snacks. Guests would bring their own alcohol and be
invited (when we open the door for them) to put it in our
fridge and help themselves to glasses, water, ice and other
drinks stuff. They would also be pointed towards the snacks
and drinks we have put out. We would be available to ask if
anyone needs anything but would generally behave like pretty
much everyone else at the party - while keeping an eye at
the snacks so we can put out more when they run out.

This would be the normal way to have a party among students
in Lund.

2. I and my boyfriend have a dinner or smaller party with
only a smaller number of specially invited guests. We would
supply everything and expect the guests to bring nothing.[1]
We would also serve the food and drink, make sure no one has
to sit with an empty glass unless they want to and try to
meet the needs of our guests.

Usually we don't have this kind of party because it requires
a bigger budget and a better supply of cutlery, plates etc
than we have presently got. If it is with close friends it
will still be quite informal though and no-one would be
afraid to ask for things and I wouldn't consider it rude if
they did.

With my parents it's pretty much the same, the type of party
and the type of ettiquette depends on the setting and the
guests. With my grandparents only the second kind occurs.

[1] They would anyway, a bottle of wine or some flowers for
the hosts is expected when you come as a guest to this kind
of party.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-04 03:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Pointing guests to your fridge is an unreasonable demand on them, and
you can't expect them to know what's fridge etiquette in your house.
How long can the fridge door stay open? How many of something can you
take? Is everything in the fridge fair game? Do you put leftovers back
in the fridge? What if the guest doesn't feel clean enough to handle
food that eventually will be eaten by others?
In my experience guests at meals/parties are invited to help
themselves to *specific* items which are *always* placed in convenient
positions (generally either on benchtops or on the table) in the same
room (or outdoor equiv.) as where the meal/party primarily takes
place. You certainly don't expect guests to have to go into different
rooms or rummage through fridges to get what they want. If guests are
invited to fridges it is usually a drinks fridge (it is common for
homes to have one fridge in the kitchen for general use, and one
fridge in the room where hosted meals take place, dedicated to drinks
only). Congestion minimisation is important.

As for tea/coffee, it is not normal to have more than one cup per
sitting (so the issue of people waiting around with empty cups does
not arise). Usually it is served by the host, but if guest are
invited to help themselves then everything required to make it *will*
be positioned at a convenient location on a benchtop. It may well be
that milk is the only thing that guests are invited to take from the
fridge.

It is normal to ask the host for a drink if not obviously provided
(that's a *cold* drink, mind, intended for quenching your thirst, no
more, and if you have to ask it means the host forgot) but it is not
normal to ask the host for luxury items like tea/coffee or a chocolate
biscuit.

In my family, when I was growing up, the rule was always that any food
on the table could be eaten at appropriate times of the day. (I'm
talking about rules within families now, not hosted events.) We were
taught that if our parents left something on the table that wasn't
intended to be eaten, it was strictly *their* *fault* and they
couldn't blame us for eating it.

Adrian.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-04 03:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
As for tea/coffee, it is not normal to have more than one cup per
sitting (so the issue of people waiting around with empty cups does
not arise).
Is that an Australian thing, perhaps? I'm used to a minimum of two
cups, and sometimes even a second pot for when the cake is brought out.

In light of Australia being rather hot compared to most of Europe, this
and your more liberal serving of cold drinks seem reasonable. I've
never seen a home with a drink fridge in the dining room, but I'm used
to being offered coffee or tea first thing when entering someone's
house. When your nose has acquired snotcicles and your feet are
something you vaguely remember, you sure feel grateful for something
hot. And a refill. And, with a bit of luck, a hot toddy for the road
before you leave.
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
In my family, when I was growing up, the rule was always that any food
on the table could be eaten at appropriate times of the day. (I'm
talking about rules within families now, not hosted events.) We were
taught that if our parents left something on the table that wasn't
intended to be eaten, it was strictly *their* *fault* and they
couldn't blame us for eating it.
Well, kids need to "graze" more than adults, I think. We were shown
what was acceptable to go for, and everything else was off limits. And
woe be unto the kid who left a dirty plate in the living room, or smelly
orange peel on the kitchen counter. Or didn't rinse a milk glass after
use.

Regards,
--
*Art
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-04 05:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
As for tea/coffee, it is not normal to have more than one cup per
sitting (so the issue of people waiting around with empty cups does
not arise).
Is that an Australian thing, perhaps? I'm used to a minimum of two
cups, and sometimes even a second pot for when the cake is brought out.
Almost certainly. Mind you, the cups are mugs. :-)

Etiquette is doubtless influenced by all sorts of things. Apart from
climate, another obvious example is space. Overpopulated regions have
a lot of etiquette rules that boil down to ways of coping with *being*
overpopulated. Congestion is the key here. It isn't practical to have
people all helping themselves in a small space; there's no room. I
don't know how spacious your native habitat is, but I'm accustomed to
plenty of space.
Post by Arthur Hagen
In light of Australia being rather hot compared to most of Europe, this
and your more liberal serving of cold drinks seem reasonable. I've
never seen a home with a drink fridge in the dining room, but I'm used
to being offered coffee or tea first thing when entering someone's
house. When your nose has acquired snotcicles and your feet are
something you vaguely remember, you sure feel grateful for something
hot. And a refill. And, with a bit of luck, a hot toddy for the road
before you leave.
Hot drinks over here are rarely intended for the purpose of keeping
warm. They're more of a social thing. It's customary to offer guests a
hot drink if they're staying only briefly, but such things are rarely
offered immediately if a meal etc is on the agenda.

The drinks fridge is located in the sunroom, if your house is large
enough to have one.

Adrian.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-04 06:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
The drinks fridge is located in the sunroom, if your house is large
enough to have one.
What's a sunroom? :-)

Regards,
--
*Art
PleegWat
2005-07-04 07:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
The drinks fridge is located in the sunroom, if your house is large
enough to have one.
What's a sunroom? :-)
My first thought was what we call in .nl a 'serre', which is in turn
indeed translated by my dutch-english dictionary as a sun lounge or sun
room (although the word isn't in the other way around). It's basically a
glass room, in that all the outward walls and ceiling are made out of glass.
--
PleegWat
Remove caps to reply
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-04 09:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
The drinks fridge is located in the sunroom, if your house is large
enough to have one.
What's a sunroom? :-)
Room with big windows and thin walls, for creating a touch of outdoor
atmosphere without actually being outdoors.

Usually quite spacious, and a good place for providing hospitality to
largish numbers of people. Likely to contain a table for special meals
and some simple armchairs for relaxing with a hot beverage. However,
much variation observed in practise (as any quick Google will reveal).

Here's a good example:
Loading Image...

Adrian.
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-01 15:31:04 UTC
Permalink
<snip tea>
Post by Arthur Hagen
- Don't let any bag tags hang out of the tea pot. At least keep the
*illusion* that you actually made tea.
- Don't ask people whether they want tea and then serve them herbal
tea (i.e. anything not made with real tea leaves). It's like asking
people whether they want a drink, and then serve them carrot juice.
While it technically qualifies, it's a "no".
- Do not place biscuits on the saucer. Dirty an extra plate.
<snip>

Art, I saved your entire contribution in case I ever get around to writing
fiction.
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Graycat
2005-07-01 20:05:07 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:32:15 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her
aluminium teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference
between milk first and milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I believe you're exactly wrong. Since you don't see the actual milk,
you can't judge how *much* milk you've put in -- how can you tell
whether it's 4cc or 6cc? If you pour it in the cup first, you can
easier estimate how much milk you've put in (though it makes it harder
to estimate how much *tea* you've put in.)
However, that's not all that important, as it's usually the *ratio* of
milk to tea that matters, and not how *much* milk. Unless you're on a
very strict diet.
And getting the ration right is easier, I think, if you put
the milk in after. If you put the milk in first, and you put
too much in you can either drink wishy washy tea or pour it
all out and start over. If you put too little you have to
put in more at the end anyway.

If you put the tea in first you can add milk until the
colour is right. If you can't get quite as much milk in as
you'd like, it's not really a problem since the tea is the
point.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-04 14:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graycat
If you put the tea in first you can add milk until the
colour is right.
Personally, my usual technique is to pour milk into the mug of
tea/coffee and stop pouring *just* at the moment when I can see the
cloud of milk rising up through the liquid.

On Usenet, I can be ultra-precise. I could even start a cult dedicated
to proclaiming the correct colour of hot beverages, and splits might
then develop over the precise RGB value of this colour.

<offers Elin a mug of #724828-coloured coffee and holds a knife ready
to slit her throat if it turns out she's a heretic who doesn't know
that this colour is correct>.

Adrian.

(Oi, you in the back! Yes you, the pedant moaning about different
lighting conditions and variations between monitors: <pthhhhht!!>)
Lesley Weston
2005-07-02 18:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Graycat
2005-07-02 21:47:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:30:06 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
Er, what do you use to make your tea fluid? Alternatively,
what are your mugs made of? I have used only mugs for years
and years and never cracked one by pouring boiling water
into it. It would be a seriously crap mug if it cracked from
boiling water being poured into it.

And besides, wouldn't the best way to avoid something like
that be to heat the mug beforehand? As the combination of
really cold mug and really hot tea, or vice versa, would be
much more likely to crack the mug than hot tea in a hot mug.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-02 23:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graycat
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:30:06 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup
without there being cold milk in there already to cool it down could
crack the cup, but the very finest and thinnest bone china can
withstand much higher temperatures. So those who have such china
point out their superiority by putting the milk in last.
Er, what do you use to make your tea fluid? Alternatively,
what are your mugs made of? I have used only mugs for years
and years and never cracked one by pouring boiling water
into it. It would be a seriously crap mug if it cracked from
boiling water being poured into it.
Your age betrays you. You're probably born after the dishwasher and
heat-resistant cups and mugs became common. You don't have to go
further back than the fifties, and cups and mugs were much more prone to
disintegrating with rapid temperature shifts. Even more so in earlier
days.
Post by Graycat
And besides, wouldn't the best way to avoid something like
that be to heat the mug beforehand? As the combination of
really cold mug and really hot tea, or vice versa, would be
much more likely to crack the mug than hot tea in a hot mug.
Indeed. Except for the problem with the handle, which then breaks off
as it cools down. This is a common problem, especially with older
(pre-dishwasher-safe) coffee/chocolate mugs.

Scorching hot tea in thin bone china is still what I'd prefer. It has
the unique quality that it expands/retracts very little due to
temperature differences, and the thinness further helps in avoiding hot
and cold zones.

Regards,
--
*Art
Graycat
2005-07-03 10:41:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 19:38:36 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Graycat
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:30:06 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup
without there being cold milk in there already to cool it down could
crack the cup, but the very finest and thinnest bone china can
withstand much higher temperatures. So those who have such china
point out their superiority by putting the milk in last.
Er, what do you use to make your tea fluid? Alternatively,
what are your mugs made of? I have used only mugs for years
and years and never cracked one by pouring boiling water
into it. It would be a seriously crap mug if it cracked from
boiling water being poured into it.
Your age betrays you. You're probably born after the dishwasher and
heat-resistant cups and mugs became common. You don't have to go
further back than the fifties, and cups and mugs were much more prone to
disintegrating with rapid temperature shifts. Even more so in earlier
days.
Ok, so in pre-dishwasher days they apparently had seriously
crap mugs. I'll have to take your word for it because I've
never encountered this problem.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Lesley Weston
2005-07-03 18:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graycat
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:30:06 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
Er, what do you use to make your tea fluid?
Tea is made in a teapot, preferably silver. The practice of putting tea bags
into mugs is reprehensible, even if it is the only way I make tea these
days.
Post by Graycat
Alternatively,
what are your mugs made of? I have used only mugs for years
and years and never cracked one by pouring boiling water
into it. It would be a seriously crap mug if it cracked from
boiling water being poured into it.
And besides, wouldn't the best way to avoid something like
that be to heat the mug beforehand? As the combination of
really cold mug and really hot tea, or vice versa, would be
much more likely to crack the mug than hot tea in a hot mug.
Now you're being rational, which is not the most suitable approach to class
issues.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Graycat
2005-07-03 21:13:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:26:12 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Graycat
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:30:06 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
Er, what do you use to make your tea fluid?
Tea is made in a teapot, preferably silver. The practice of putting tea bags
into mugs is reprehensible, even if it is the only way I make tea these
days.
Well, yes, I meant what liquid do you use? Water boils at
100 C (at least at sea level) so that's usually the hottest
tea-water will be. I've never had a mug crack on me from
heving boiling water poured into it, so I was wondering (not
seriously though, obviously) if perhaps you used something
with a higher boiling-point.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
mcv
2005-07-04 09:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graycat
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:26:12 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Graycat
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:30:06 GMT, Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
Er, what do you use to make your tea fluid?
Tea is made in a teapot, preferably silver. The practice of putting tea bags
into mugs is reprehensible, even if it is the only way I make tea these
days.
Well, yes, I meant what liquid do you use? Water boils at
100 C (at least at sea level) so that's usually the hottest
tea-water will be.
Unless boiled under high pressure.
Post by Graycat
I've never had a mug crack on me from
heving boiling water poured into it,
That's because you use good mugs. I can imagine that some mugs are badly
made and can crack due to sudden temperature differences. My sister once
got a very light, decorative tea pot and 2 mugs, which ofcourse at some
point got used for actually making and drinking tea. Now they're riddled
with cracks. I'm not entirely sure there's a causal connection, but if
there is, it would support this theory.


mcv.
Alec Cawley
2005-07-02 22:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
My impression is that then upper class way to do it is to pit the milk
in first, the reason being given that if you add milk to a large
quantity of hot tea, the milk is scalded, whereas if you add tea
relatively slowly to pre-placed milk, it never reaches such a high
temperature, yielding a better flavour.

So far as I can tell the difference, I prefer my milk scalded
(allegedly).
--
@lec ©awley
http://www.livejournal.com/~randombler
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-03 11:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alec Cawley
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
My impression is that then upper class way to do it is to pit the milk
in first, the reason being given that if you add milk to a large
quantity of hot tea, the milk is scalded, whereas if you add tea
relatively slowly to pre-placed milk, it never reaches such a high
temperature, yielding a better flavour.
What happens is that only a small amount of the milk actually attains a
high enough temperature for chemical changes to take place, whereas if the
milk is added afterwards pretty much all of it changes.
Post by Alec Cawley
So far as I can tell the difference, I prefer my milk scalded
(allegedly).
How did you first encounter tea? It may well be that you expect tea to
contain scalded milk. I assume that in these days of a tea bag in a cup
there are a lot of people who have never actually tasted tea made
"properly".
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Lesley Weston
2005-07-03 18:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alec Cawley
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
My impression is that then upper class way to do it is to pit the milk
in first,
Things could have changed, of course, but when Nancy Mitford was writing, it
was milk in last. I've never actually known anyone who did it this way -
perhaps it was a joke on her part.
--
Lesley Weston.

Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-03 11:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
The difference is that if you put the milk in after you can tell how
*much* milk you have actually put in (by the colour).
I thought it was a class thing. Hot tea going into a thick cup without there
being cold milk in there already to cool it down could crack the cup, but
the very finest and thinnest bone china can withstand much higher
temperatures. So those who have such china point out their superiority by
putting the milk in last.
Pure urban myth.

There is a chemically discernible difference in the resulting cup of tea
depending on how the temperature of the milk is raised, it's as simple as
that. It produces a different taste and the taste of tea poured on to milk
is the one preferred by most people who can tell the difference. I find
there's a sort of "harsh overtone" to the taste of tea made with the milk
added afterwards, not particularly unpleasant but not as nice as when tea
is made properly.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
mcv
2005-07-01 11:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
I know some folks are forced to use a mug, although it offends my
sensibilities (grin).
Why? A mug can hold more tea, which is good.
The teapot is used for holding the tea. One uses the cup to drink from.
You can drink more from a mug.
Can't argue with that. More is good. (^:"
Exactly my point.

I'm actually surprised you're not pointing out that my tea gets cold
without a lid on the pot. Ofcourse answer would have been: only if
you fail to drink it in time.
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
How on Disc did your cat learn to remove the lid?
I don't use lids. I always use or misplace them. Besides, they're
plastic, which is technically bad.
I see. Which side are you on in the china versus metal issue?
My pots are glass, which is cheap and good and certainly better than
metal.
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
Who cares about the difference? Both are wrong. Except perhaps for
young children. (Although I have to admit my sister drank her tea
with milk until she was 18.)
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
mcv.
Pardon me, but are you the same mcv who has art work on the L-space site?
Is it a mon^H^H^Hape behind a computer? I made something like that
as a design for an a.f.p t-shirt ages ago, just before disappearing
off the face of the earth.


mcv.
Midgardette
2005-07-02 00:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
You can drink more from a mug.
Can't argue with that. More is good. (^:"
Exactly my point.
I'm actually surprised you're not pointing out that my tea gets cold
without a lid on the pot. Ofcourse answer would have been: only if
you fail to drink it in time.
I'm waiting to point out things when I've recovered from the overwhelming
response to my question about milk in tea. I had no idea there were such
vehement feelings. I supposed that the lack of lid was to facilitate the
kitten's quest for tea.
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
Who cares about the difference? Both are wrong. Except perhaps for
young children. (Although I have to admit my sister drank her tea
with milk until she was 18.)
Some folks advocate a difference in taste depending on teas first or milk
first. I never tasted any difference myself. As for taking milk, I was
brought up that way. I can have it black if I have to. No milk in Chinese
teas though.
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
mcv.
Pardon me, but are you the same mcv who has art work on the L-space site?
Is it a mon^H^H^Hape behind a computer? I made something like that
as a design for an a.f.p t-shirt ages ago, just before disappearing
off the face of the earth.
Yes, I believe it to be the Librarian manipulating Hex. Disappearing? You
don't seem disappeared to me.

Midgardette
The Turtle Moves!
mcv
2005-07-02 10:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
You can drink more from a mug.
Can't argue with that. More is good. (^:"
Exactly my point.
I'm actually surprised you're not pointing out that my tea gets cold
without a lid on the pot. Ofcourse answer would have been: only if
you fail to drink it in time.
I'm waiting to point out things when I've recovered from the overwhelming
response to my question about milk in tea. I had no idea there were such
vehement feelings. I supposed that the lack of lid was to facilitate the
kitten's quest for tea.
I'm not facilitating his quest for tea, I'm just too lazy to bother
with lids, and it's probably vanished completely anyway. I think I
should learn to bother with lids, even if only to stop my cat from
messing with my tea.
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk first and
milk after either.
Who cares about the difference? Both are wrong. Except perhaps for
young children. (Although I have to admit my sister drank her tea
with milk until she was 18.)
Some folks advocate a difference in taste depending on teas first or milk
first. I never tasted any difference myself. As for taking milk, I was
brought up that way. I can have it black if I have to. No milk in Chinese
teas though.
I don't understand why milky tea is so popular in England at all. And
certainly not why they claim it's somehow the right way to drink tea.
To me, milky tea is like ice tea, herbal tea and fruit tea, in that it
is vaguely related to tea, but it's actually totally different drink
altogether.
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
mcv.
Pardon me, but are you the same mcv who has art work on the L-space site?
Is it a mon^H^H^Hape behind a computer? I made something like that
as a design for an a.f.p t-shirt ages ago, just before disappearing
off the face of the earth.
Yes, I believe it to be the Librarian manipulating Hex.
It was from before Hex first appearance, I think. It was just meant to
be a funny picture of the librarian behind a computer with cogs and imps
(like Rincewind's camera in TCoM), referring to the computerised nature
of a.f.p., since computers and internet were still something special
and not the dirt common household appliances that they are today.

I also had an idea for Death whose keyboard was always had caps lock
on, and Rincewind whose computer could run only one program, but I
never got around to drawing them.
Post by Midgardette
Disappearing? You don't seem disappeared to me.
I keep coming back every now and then.


mcv.
Midgardette
2005-07-02 22:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by mcv
I'm actually surprised you're not pointing out that my tea gets cold
Post by mcv
without a lid on the pot. Ofcourse answer would have been: only if
you fail to drink it in time.
I'm waiting to point out things when I've recovered from the overwhelming
response to my question about milk in tea. I had no idea there were such
vehement feelings. I supposed that the lack of lid was to facilitate the
kitten's quest for tea.
I'm not facilitating his quest for tea, I'm just too lazy to bother
with lids, and it's probably vanished completely anyway. I think I
should learn to bother with lids, even if only to stop my cat from
messing with my tea.
You'd only encourage him to learn how to lift off th lid. Cats are highly
motivated when it come to getting their own way.


<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by mcv
Some folks advocate a difference in taste depending on teas first or milk
first. I never tasted any difference myself. As for taking milk, I was
brought up that way. I can have it black if I have to. No milk in Chinese
teas though.
I don't understand why milky tea is so popular in England at all. And
certainly not why they claim it's somehow the right way to drink tea.
To me, milky tea is like ice tea, herbal tea and fruit tea, in that it
is vaguely related to tea, but it's actually totally different drink
altogether.
Well, I'm not in England, I'm in Canada. I have very strong English roots
though. Darn things go down deep and they're all twisted up.

I don't proclaim with milk is the right way, just 'a' way.
Post by mcv
Post by mcv
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
mcv.
Pardon me, but are you the same mcv who has art work on the L-space site?
Is it a mon^H^H^Hape behind a computer? I made something like that
as a design for an a.f.p t-shirt ages ago, just before disappearing
off the face of the earth.
Yes, I believe it to be the Librarian manipulating Hex.
It was from before Hex first appearance, I think. It was just meant to
be a funny picture of the librarian behind a computer with cogs and imps
(like Rincewind's camera in TCoM), referring to the computerised nature
of a.f.p., since computers and internet were still something special
and not the dirt common household appliances that they are today.
I see. Intuitive.
Post by mcv
I also had an idea for Death whose keyboard was always had caps lock
on, and Rincewind whose computer could run only one program, but I
never got around to drawing them.
And I suppose Rincewind's program would run very, very fast, eh? (^:"
Post by mcv
Post by mcv
Disappearing? You don't seem disappeared to me.
I keep coming back every now and then.
All righty then. I'll enjoy you whilst you're here.

Midgardette
"...my father is the Emperor of Klatch and my mother is a small tray of
raspberry puddings."
naomi
2005-07-04 08:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
You can drink more from a mug.
Can't argue with that. More is good. (^:"
Exactly my point.
I'm actually surprised you're not pointing out that my tea gets cold
without a lid on the pot. Ofcourse answer would have been: only if
you fail to drink it in time.
I'm waiting to point out things when I've recovered from the
overwhelming
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
response to my question about milk in tea. I had no idea there were such
vehement feelings. I supposed that the lack of lid was to facilitate the
kitten's quest for tea.
I'm not facilitating his quest for tea, I'm just too lazy to bother
with lids, and it's probably vanished completely anyway. I think I
should learn to bother with lids, even if only to stop my cat from
messing with my tea.
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Same here, although my girlfriend, from Liverpool, swears by her aluminium
teapot. I've never been able to tell the difference between milk
first
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
and
milk after either.
Who cares about the difference? Both are wrong. Except perhaps for
young children. (Although I have to admit my sister drank her tea
with milk until she was 18.)
Some folks advocate a difference in taste depending on teas first or milk
first. I never tasted any difference myself. As for taking milk, I was
brought up that way. I can have it black if I have to. No milk in Chinese
teas though.
I don't understand why milky tea is so popular in England at all. And
certainly not why they claim it's somehow the right way to drink tea.
To me, milky tea is like ice tea, herbal tea and fruit tea, in that it
is vaguely related to tea, but it's actually totally different drink
altogether.
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
mcv.
Pardon me, but are you the same mcv who has art work on the L-space site?
Is it a mon^H^H^Hape behind a computer? I made something like that
as a design for an a.f.p t-shirt ages ago, just before disappearing
off the face of the earth.
Yes, I believe it to be the Librarian manipulating Hex.
It was from before Hex first appearance, I think. It was just meant to
be a funny picture of the librarian behind a computer with cogs and imps
(like Rincewind's camera in TCoM), referring to the computerised nature
of a.f.p., since computers and internet were still something special
and not the dirt common household appliances that they are today.
I also had an idea for Death whose keyboard was always had caps lock
on, and Rincewind whose computer could run only one program, but I
never got around to drawing them.
Post by Midgardette
Disappearing? You don't seem disappeared to me.
I keep coming back every now and then.
mcv.
mcv. do you have a link to this picture? and may I use it as a desktop?
pretty please?

naomi
mcv
2005-07-04 09:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by naomi
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
mcv.
Pardon me, but are you the same mcv who has art work on the L-space
site?
Post by mcv
Post by Midgardette
Post by mcv
Is it a mon^H^H^Hape behind a computer? I made something like that
as a design for an a.f.p t-shirt ages ago, just before disappearing
off the face of the earth.
Yes, I believe it to be the Librarian manipulating Hex.
It was from before Hex first appearance, I think. It was just meant to
be a funny picture of the librarian behind a computer with cogs and imps
(like Rincewind's camera in TCoM), referring to the computerised nature
of a.f.p., since computers and internet were still something special
and not the dirt common household appliances that they are today.
I also had an idea for Death whose keyboard was always had caps lock
on, and Rincewind whose computer could run only one program, but I
never got around to drawing them.
mcv. do you have a link to this picture? and may I use it as a desktop?
pretty please?
It's somewhere on L-space apparently. I haven't seen it in years.

It's just a sketch, so probably not good enough to use as actual decoration,
and as far as I remember, I was so foolish in those days that I scanned it
as jpg instead of png[1], so they may have been lots of strange colour
artifacts in the black& white sketch.


mcv.

[1] Possibly because png didn't exist, or if it did, it was at least not
sufficiently well known to be known about by me.
Leo Breebaart
2005-07-04 09:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by naomi
mcv. do you have a link to this picture? and may I use it as
a desktop? pretty please?
It's somewhere on L-space apparently. I haven't seen it in
years.
<http://www.lspace.org/art/wizards.html>

Last picture in the list.
--
Leo Breebaart <***@lspace.org>
mcv
2005-07-04 13:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leo Breebaart
Post by mcv
Post by naomi
mcv. do you have a link to this picture? and may I use it as
a desktop? pretty please?
It's somewhere on L-space apparently. I haven't seen it in
years.
<http://www.lspace.org/art/wizards.html>
Last picture in the list.
Like I said, it's just a simple sketch. The idea is good, but proportions
are way off and it's much too light and stuff like that. I remember
making a second version which was better executed but somehow not as
inspired.


mcv.
Rgemini
2005-07-01 20:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Midgardette wrote:
<thnip thtuff about tea and milk firtht or latht>

I've been making and drinking tea for well over 40 years and my
considered opinions are as follows:

1) tea bags spoil the taste
2) loose black tea, in a teapot that has been scalded first, made with
freshly boiling water, gives the best result - about 2 heaped UKian
teaspoons per average pot
3) milk in first-how much? I don't know, I just put the right amount in
4) big cups or mugs are better than small ones
5) if you keep topping the pot up with freshly boiled water you can get
lots of cups of good tea
6) don't forget to use a teastrainer

However - the best tea I ever tasted was when I worked in a toolmakers
workshop. Forget the pot - they heated a brick in the kiln and dropped
it into a galvanised bucket of water. As it boiled they threw in a
handful of tealeaves. Mugs were dipped in and milk added - in
contradiction of my rule 3 but there was no alternative!

Rgemini
mcv
2005-07-01 21:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rgemini
<thnip thtuff about tea and milk firtht or latht>
I've been making and drinking tea for well over 40 years and my
1) tea bags spoil the taste
More than metal, or whatever material you use to contain your loose
tea leaves? You do need some way to remove the leaves again after a
few minutes.
Post by Rgemini
3) milk in first-how much? I don't know, I just put the right amount in
No milk! What a horrible idea!
Post by Rgemini
5) if you keep topping the pot up with freshly boiled water you can get
lots of cups of good tea
You're watering down your tea? Or are you re-using old leaves? Either
way, I strongly disagree.
Post by Rgemini
6) don't forget to use a teastrainer
What the hell is that?

Here are my rules of making the best tea:

Boil water. Just before it boils, use a bit of the water to heat the
pot. Pour the boiling water in the pot, and immediately add the tea.
Immediately. Don't wait half a minute or something. Add the tea in
a removable container, be it a bag or something that you can put
your own loose leaves in. Let it steep for 3 or 4 minutes. Remove tea.
Pour. Drink.

Only add sugar if you didn't follow the above instructions and somehow
managed to ruin the tea, and still insist on drinking tea that's been
steeping for 10 minutes or something. Then remind yourself to use a
timer next time.


mcv.
Brian Wakeling
2005-07-01 21:31:24 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by Rgemini
6) don't forget to use a teastrainer
What the hell is that?
A very useful device that is basically a bowler hat made for
tea cups. It has a wire mesh crown and a very wide, but solid
metal, brim. You place the brim on top of the cup you are
about to pour from the pot into, with the mesh inside the
actual cup (ie. the bowler hat is upside down). Pour the tea
from the pot, and any loose leaves will be caught by the tea
strainer.
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
"He who laughs last thinks slowest"
mcv
2005-07-01 21:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by Rgemini
6) don't forget to use a teastrainer
What the hell is that?
A very useful device that is basically a bowler hat made for
tea cups. It has a wire mesh crown and a very wide, but solid
metal, brim. You place the brim on top of the cup you are
about to pour from the pot into, with the mesh inside the
actual cup (ie. the bowler hat is upside down). Pour the tea
from the pot, and any loose leaves will be caught by the tea
strainer.
Ah, sounds like it's the same thing as the Dutch "theezeefje"
(although that can also be made of plastic). Still, the problem
with filtering the leaves as you pour is that you need to pour
all the tea at once, or else some of the tea will get too strong.
This isn't a problem if you have enough company to empty the pot
right away, but alone or in small company, this doesn't work.


mcv.
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-02 19:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
<snip>
Post by mcv
Post by Rgemini
6) don't forget to use a teastrainer
What the hell is that?
A very useful device that is basically a bowler hat made for
tea cups. It has a wire mesh crown and a very wide, but solid
metal, brim.
Wire mesh? Sacrilege! No matter how well you clean them, they will add
flavour of previous servings, rust and dishwater.
A good tea strainer is solid metal (silver or silver plated preferred)
with holes pierced in it for the tea to drain through.

Using a wire mesh cullender for tea is as bad as using an "eternity
filter" for coffee. *shudder*

Regards,
--
*Art
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-01 22:38:49 UTC
Permalink
mcv wrote:
<tea>
Post by mcv
Boil water. Just before it boils, use a bit of the water to heat the
pot. Pour the boiling water in the pot, and immediately add the tea.
Immediately.
Yes, but you let it boil, as opposed to getting it *just* before it boils?
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-01 23:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
<tea>
Post by mcv
Boil water. Just before it boils, use a bit of the water to heat the
pot. Pour the boiling water in the pot, and immediately add the tea.
Immediately.
Yes, but you let it boil, as opposed to getting it *just* before it boils?
Yep, Just before it boils is for coffee which needs to have well aerated
water to get the flavour out. Boiling the water for coffee makes it taste
sort of flat. With tea you need the higher temperature because it gets the
right flavours out of the tea leaf as fast as possible.

Just about every aspect of brewing a decent cup of tea amounts to a race
against tannin.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-01 22:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rgemini
<thnip thtuff about tea and milk firtht or latht>
I've been making and drinking tea for well over 40 years and my
1) tea bags spoil the taste
2) loose black tea, in a teapot that has been scalded first, made with
freshly boiling water, gives the best result - about 2 heaped UKian
teaspoons per average pot
3) milk in first-how much? I don't know, I just put the right amount in
4) big cups or mugs are better than small ones
5) if you keep topping the pot up with freshly boiled water you can get
lots of cups of good tea
6) don't forget to use a teastrainer
A former flatmate of mine studied the brewing of tea for his chemistry
PhD. Another former flat mate is, the last I heard, the most senior woman
anywhere in the tea industry. I work on the basis that they probably know
a little bit about how to make a decent cuppa. My taste buds agree.

You are pretty much spot on in every respect, apart from number 5 which is
just plain wrong.

What happens is that the flavours come out of the tea leaf first, the
tanning starts dissolving into the liquor after three minutes or so. So
the longer you leave the tea infusing the more bitter it will taste, and
from around five minutes all that will happen is there will be more
tannin. So what you get after the first run at the pot will taste
significantly different, and unless you like lots of tannin it will taste
a lot worse. You can ameliorate it a little by adding some more tea leaves
as well as more hot water, but by and large the only reason to attempt to
get more than a single round from a pot is lack of tea.

Tea bags aren't as good as leaf tea in a decent pot. However the pyramid
or round bags really do make a better cup of tea than traditional tea
bags. The reason for this is that you need to get the maximum amount of
flavour infused in the first few minutes before the tannin kicks in. So
the more surface area of the leaves that can be exposed to the water the
better. The best shape container to brew tea in is a sphere since it
allows the tea leaves the maximum chance to move around without being
against the surface of the container or trapped by other yea leaves. For
the purpose of brewing tea a traditional tea pot is close enough to
spherical. Spherical tea bags would be a pain to manufacture and pack.

The darker the tea pot the better, and it's best if it's made of something
that insulates well. So the classic brown china tea pot is still probably
the best thing to use.

There is a measurable chemical difference depending on whether the milk
goes in the cup before or after the tea. However it's purely a matter of
taste which you prefer. Some deviants will always prefer tea with the milk
put in after the tea. No amount of persuasion will get the poor deluded
unfortunates to accept the error of their ways, they just prefer the yea
to taste wrong. People who claim there is no difference simply can't taste
well enough to tell. I have no problem with this so long as they ate
willing to accept that they are just plain wrong and should put the milk
in the cup first even though they can't taste the difference.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Midgardette
2005-07-03 03:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Rgemini
<thnip thtuff about tea and milk firtht or latht>
<snipping more thtuff>
Post by Eric Jarvis
A former flatmate of mine studied the brewing of tea for his chemistry
PhD. Another former flat mate is, the last I heard, the most senior woman
anywhere in the tea industry. I work on the basis that they probably know
a little bit about how to make a decent cuppa. My taste buds agree.
You are pretty much spot on in every respect, apart from number 5 which is
just plain wrong.
What happens is that the flavours come out of the tea leaf first, the
tanning starts dissolving into the liquor after three minutes or so. So
the longer you leave the tea infusing the more bitter it will taste, and
from around five minutes all that will happen is there will be more
tannin. So what you get after the first run at the pot will taste
significantly different, and unless you like lots of tannin it will taste
a lot worse. You can ameliorate it a little by adding some more tea leaves
as well as more hot water, but by and large the only reason to attempt to
get more than a single round from a pot is lack of tea.
Tea bags aren't as good as leaf tea in a decent pot. However the pyramid
or round bags really do make a better cup of tea than traditional tea
bags. The reason for this is that you need to get the maximum amount of
flavour infused in the first few minutes before the tannin kicks in.
So what is with the idea of leaving tea to steep for X number of minutes? I
thought there was some kind of rule. It sounds to me like you're standing
over the pot with a stop watch waiting to pour after 3 minutes.


So
Post by Eric Jarvis
the more surface area of the leaves that can be exposed to the water the
better.
Do you stir?



The best shape container to brew tea in is a sphere since it
Post by Eric Jarvis
allows the tea leaves the maximum chance to move around without being
against the surface of the container or trapped by other yea leaves. For
the purpose of brewing tea a traditional tea pot is close enough to
spherical. Spherical tea bags would be a pain to manufacture and pack.
I believe this can be achieved with a tea ball.
Post by Eric Jarvis
The darker the tea pot the better, and it's best if it's made of something
that insulates well. So the classic brown china tea pot is still probably
the best thing to use.
There is a measurable chemical difference depending on whether the milk
goes in the cup before or after the tea. However it's purely a matter of
taste which you prefer. Some deviants will always prefer tea with the milk
put in after the tea. No amount of persuasion will get the poor deluded
unfortunates to accept the error of their ways, they just prefer the yea
to taste wrong. People who claim there is no difference simply can't taste
well enough to tell. I have no problem with this so long as they ate
willing to accept that they are just plain wrong and should put the milk
in the cup first even though they can't taste the difference.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
My thanks for the tea-mendous education. You seem to have soaked up the
information from you flatmate. Do you have a favourite brand, blend or
combination of teas?

Midgardette
" The important thing about adventures, thought Mr Bunnsy, was that they
shouldn't be so long as to make you miss mealtimes. "
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-03 12:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Rgemini
<thnip thtuff about tea and milk firtht or latht>
<snipping more thtuff>
Post by Eric Jarvis
A former flatmate of mine studied the brewing of tea for his chemistry
PhD. Another former flat mate is, the last I heard, the most senior woman
anywhere in the tea industry. I work on the basis that they probably know
a little bit about how to make a decent cuppa. My taste buds agree.
You are pretty much spot on in every respect, apart from number 5 which is
just plain wrong.
What happens is that the flavours come out of the tea leaf first, the
tanning starts dissolving into the liquor after three minutes or so. So
the longer you leave the tea infusing the more bitter it will taste, and
from around five minutes all that will happen is there will be more
tannin. So what you get after the first run at the pot will taste
significantly different, and unless you like lots of tannin it will taste
a lot worse. You can ameliorate it a little by adding some more tea leaves
as well as more hot water, but by and large the only reason to attempt to
get more than a single round from a pot is lack of tea.
Tea bags aren't as good as leaf tea in a decent pot. However the pyramid
or round bags really do make a better cup of tea than traditional tea
bags. The reason for this is that you need to get the maximum amount of
flavour infused in the first few minutes before the tannin kicks in.
So what is with the idea of leaving tea to steep for X number of minutes? I
thought there was some kind of rule. It sounds to me like you're standing
over the pot with a stop watch waiting to pour after 3 minutes.
To get a perfect cup probably requires that sort of accuracy. To my mind
there's around a thirty second "window" during which the tea is pretty
much at it's best, though when that is depends on the type of tea. Assam
is ready before three minutes is up, Darjeeling is still fine after four
minutes.
Post by Midgardette
So
Post by Eric Jarvis
the more surface area of the leaves that can be exposed to the water the
better.
Do you stir?
I would guess that would help, but would mean opening the top of the tea
pot and thus losing heat.
Post by Midgardette
The best shape container to brew tea in is a sphere since it
Post by Eric Jarvis
allows the tea leaves the maximum chance to move around without being
against the surface of the container or trapped by other yea leaves. For
the purpose of brewing tea a traditional tea pot is close enough to
spherical. Spherical tea bags would be a pain to manufacture and pack.
I believe this can be achieved with a tea ball.
Sounds like a neat invention.
Post by Midgardette
Post by Eric Jarvis
The darker the tea pot the better, and it's best if it's made of something
that insulates well. So the classic brown china tea pot is still probably
the best thing to use.
There is a measurable chemical difference depending on whether the milk
goes in the cup before or after the tea. However it's purely a matter of
taste which you prefer. Some deviants will always prefer tea with the milk
put in after the tea. No amount of persuasion will get the poor deluded
unfortunates to accept the error of their ways, they just prefer the yea
to taste wrong. People who claim there is no difference simply can't taste
well enough to tell. I have no problem with this so long as they ate
willing to accept that they are just plain wrong and should put the milk
in the cup first even though they can't taste the difference.
My thanks for the tea-mendous education. You seem to have soaked up the
information from you flatmate. Do you have a favourite brand, blend or
combination of teas?
When I've got the money I like to keep a stock of Darjeeling, Assam,
Orange Pekoe, Oolong, and Lapsang Souchong. The Whittards of Chelsea
Oolong is my favourite but it's hideously expensive compared to PG Tips.

Assam makes a good heavy duty wake up tea. Darjeeling is a really nice
light evening tea. Orange Pekoe is the main ingredient in most decent
blended teas and works well as an all purpose tea as well as making the
Assam a little less "heavy" when blended with it. Oolong has a hint of
peach flavour to the taste and in my view is for times when you really
want to wallow in the taste of a cup of tea. Lapsang is a sort of smoky
bacon tea and sometimes in simply the only thing that will really do.

Currently I've only got some Lapsang and some Tetley's tea bags.

At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31 different
types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full member of the society
you had to have completed the set. There was one attempt to go through the
lot in 24 hours and only two of us made it.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Paul S. Brown
2005-07-03 12:24:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31 different
types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full member of the society
you had to have completed the set. There was one attempt to go through the
lot in 24 hours and only two of us made it.
...to sleep for the next week

P.
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-03 12:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Brown
Post by Eric Jarvis
At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31 different
types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full member of the society
you had to have completed the set. There was one attempt to go through the
lot in 24 hours and only two of us made it.
...to sleep for the next week
36 hours awake to be precise. Don't try drinking 32 cups of tea in 24
hours, it makes for an interesting but not tremendously pleasant following
day and a half.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
mcv
2005-07-03 15:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Paul S. Brown
Post by Eric Jarvis
At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31 different
types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full member of the society
you had to have completed the set. There was one attempt to go through the
lot in 24 hours and only two of us made it.
...to sleep for the next week
36 hours awake to be precise. Don't try drinking 32 cups of tea in 24
hours, it makes for an interesting but not tremendously pleasant following
day and a half.
How manu liters is that? I regularly drink about 4 or 5, occasionally
6 pots (liters, although I think my pot is actually slightly larger)
a day.


mcv.
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-04 05:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcv
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Paul S. Brown
Post by Eric Jarvis
At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31 different
types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full member of the society
you had to have completed the set. There was one attempt to go through the
lot in 24 hours and only two of us made it.
...to sleep for the next week
36 hours awake to be precise. Don't try drinking 32 cups of tea in 24
hours, it makes for an interesting but not tremendously pleasant following
day and a half.
How manu liters is that? I regularly drink about 4 or 5, occasionally
6 pots (liters, although I think my pot is actually slightly larger)
a day.
Around 10 I would guess.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-03 16:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Paul S. Brown
Post by Eric Jarvis
At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31
different types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full
member of the society you had to have completed the set. There was
one attempt to go through the lot in 24 hours and only two of us
made it.
...to sleep for the next week
36 hours awake to be precise. Don't try drinking 32 cups of tea in 24
hours, it makes for an interesting but not tremendously pleasant
following day and a half.
Almost the same thing happened when I walked into a coffee bar in Spokane
and saw an 8 shot espresso drink. My eyes got really big and I ordered it
and drank it. It was very much like being drunk, only lots more alert. But I
was awake for a loooooong time after that, far past the point where I'd have
given a lot to go to sleep.
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-03 18:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
Almost the same thing happened when I walked into a coffee bar in
Spokane and saw an 8 shot espresso drink. My eyes got really big and
I ordered it and drank it. It was very much like being drunk, only
lots more alert. But I was awake for a loooooong time after that, far
past the point where I'd have given a lot to go to sleep.
Caffeine sensitivity, or not used to coffee? Remember that correctly
brewed espresso contains *less* caffeine than other coffee drinks. It's
almost all concentrated flavour, especially for ristretto brew.
Percolated coffee contains the most caffeine, I believe. Which might be
why it's a truck stop favourite.

As a side note, I believe the average coffee consumption in Scandinavia
and Brazil is from 8-11 cups per day (which would equal about twice as
many cups of the much weaker American coffee). In addition to tea and
caffeinated beverages.

Regards,
--
*Art
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-03 18:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Stacie Hanes
Almost the same thing happened when I walked into a coffee bar in
Spokane and saw an 8 shot espresso drink. My eyes got really big and
I ordered it and drank it. It was very much like being drunk, only
lots more alert. But I was awake for a loooooong time after that, far
past the point where I'd have given a lot to go to sleep.
Caffeine sensitivity, or not used to coffee? Remember that correctly
brewed espresso contains *less* caffeine than other coffee drinks.
It's almost all concentrated flavour, especially for ristretto brew.
Percolated coffee contains the most caffeine, I believe. Which might
be why it's a truck stop favourite.
Not entirely sure. Judging by what happens to me now, I'm sensitive to it. I
drink a cup a day, most days, sometimes more than one. But too many, or too
late in the day, and I stay awake after I should be asleep.

And the first thing I thought was "perhaps they brewed it incorrectly."
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Arthur Hagen
2005-07-03 19:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
And the first thing I thought was "perhaps they brewed it
incorrectly."
Many places do. It's unfortunately common if you order a double
espresso to get a "longo" instead, which is brewed with more water and
more grounds, making it way more than twice as strong and bitter, but
with half the taste. Adding to the insult, the coffee itself is often
low quality coffee that has been roasted for too long.

Then they serve it with lemon peel and a dry stick they dare to call
biscotti.

I love espresso, but it's expensive in the long run, and not really
something you can drink for your thirst. Good coffee (Kenya AA or
Ethiopian being my current favourites) or good tea (Darjeeling) will do.
:-)

Regards,
--
*Art
Graycat
2005-07-03 21:04:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:30:37 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
Post by Arthur Hagen
As a side note, I believe the average coffee consumption in Scandinavia
and Brazil is from 8-11 cups per day (which would equal about twice as
many cups of the much weaker American coffee). In addition to tea and
caffeinated beverages.
Average I'm not so sure. In Sweden it varies - older people,
people from the country and people in the trades [1] drink a
lot of coffee. My grandmother for example probably drinks
coffee 5-6 times a day, so she might get up to 8-11 cups a
day. But that would be the upper end. Most people I know
drink coffee 1-3 times a day and are more likely to be in
the 3-6 cups/day bracket.

But yeah, coffee is very popular in Sweden.


[1] If I understand that term correctly - plumbers,
carpenters, that kind of trade.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
CCA
2005-07-03 18:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by Eric Jarvis
Don't try drinking 32 cups of tea in 24
hours, it makes for an interesting but not tremendously pleasant
following day and a half.
Almost the same thing happened when I walked into a coffee bar in Spokane
and saw an 8 shot espresso drink.
That sounds to me like one of those buttons marked "Do Not Press Ever"
- you've just got to, haven't you? *g*
Post by Stacie Hanes
My eyes got really big and I ordered it
and drank it. It was very much like being drunk, only lots more alert. But I
was awake for a loooooong time after that, far past the point where I'd have
given a lot to go to sleep.
I remember having an unscheduled sleepless night (i.e. one I hadn't
been half-expecting anyway) and trying to keep myself alert the next
day with coffee. It worked really well. So well, in fact, that I was
awake the next bloody night too...
CCA
Stacie Hanes
2005-07-03 18:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by CCA
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by Eric Jarvis
Don't try drinking 32 cups of tea in 24
hours, it makes for an interesting but not tremendously pleasant
following day and a half.
Almost the same thing happened when I walked into a coffee bar in
Spokane and saw an 8 shot espresso drink.
That sounds to me like one of those buttons marked "Do Not Press Ever"
- you've just got to, haven't you? *g*
No, computers have trained me away from that practice. But the desire is
still there.

There was a 12 shot drink, too. But I am only *so* stupid, and no more.
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-03 13:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
When I've got the money I like to keep a stock of Darjeeling, Assam,
Orange Pekoe, Oolong, and Lapsang Souchong. The Whittards of Chelsea
Oolong is my favourite but it's hideously expensive compared to PG Tips.
Assam makes a good heavy duty wake up tea. Darjeeling is a really nice
light evening tea. Orange Pekoe is the main ingredient in most decent
blended teas and works well as an all purpose tea as well as making the
Assam a little less "heavy" when blended with it. Oolong has a hint of
peach flavour to the taste and in my view is for times when you really
want to wallow in the taste of a cup of tea. Lapsang is a sort of smoky
bacon tea and sometimes in simply the only thing that will really do.
Currently I've only got some Lapsang and some Tetley's tea bags.
^^^^^^^^

At last, you named a brand I've actually heard of...!

My sister favours Tetley's - I think this is just because she likes
the advertisements. Me, I think of tea as a trivial matter - it's just
a drink, dammit - so I don't care much what brand I buy, but the stuff
presently in the cupboard happens to be Dilmah.

Adrian
Alec Cawley
2005-07-03 14:16:12 UTC
Permalink
In article <da8o74$krq$***@groundhog.korenwolf.net>, ***@netyp.com.au
says...
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
My sister favours Tetley's - I think this is just because she likes
the advertisements. Me, I think of tea as a trivial matter - it's just
a drink, dammit - so I don't care much what brand I buy, but the stuff
presently in the cupboard happens to be Dilmah.
Tetleys, or part of it, is relatively local to me, and sponsored a local
attraction. At the time when lots of sites were (lazily) displaying
logos saying "This site is best viewed with IE5" or similar, their logo
said "This site is best viewed with a cup of your favourite tea" - which
made me laugh and definitely biassed me in their favour.
--
@lec ©awley
http://www.livejournal.com/~randombler
Midgardette
2005-07-03 23:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Eric Jarvis
When I've got the money I like to keep a stock of Darjeeling, Assam,
Orange Pekoe, Oolong, and Lapsang Souchong. The Whittards of Chelsea
Oolong is my favourite but it's hideously expensive compared to PG Tips.
Assam makes a good heavy duty wake up tea. Darjeeling is a really nice
light evening tea. Orange Pekoe is the main ingredient in most decent
blended teas and works well as an all purpose tea as well as making the
Assam a little less "heavy" when blended with it. Oolong has a hint of
peach flavour to the taste and in my view is for times when you really
want to wallow in the taste of a cup of tea. Lapsang is a sort of smoky
bacon tea and sometimes in simply the only thing that will really do.
Currently I've only got some Lapsang and some Tetley's tea bags.
^^^^^^^^
At last, you named a brand I've actually heard of...!
My sister favours Tetley's - I think this is just because she likes
the advertisements. Me, I think of tea as a trivial matter - it's just
a drink, dammit - so I don't care much what brand I buy, but the stuff
presently in the cupboard happens to be Dilmah.
Tea trivial? Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion when they can't
be forced to take mine. (grin)

Midgardette
"No running with scythes!"
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-04 05:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Eric Jarvis
When I've got the money I like to keep a stock of Darjeeling, Assam,
Orange Pekoe, Oolong, and Lapsang Souchong. The Whittards of Chelsea
Oolong is my favourite but it's hideously expensive compared to PG Tips.
Assam makes a good heavy duty wake up tea. Darjeeling is a really nice
light evening tea. Orange Pekoe is the main ingredient in most decent
blended teas and works well as an all purpose tea as well as making the
Assam a little less "heavy" when blended with it. Oolong has a hint of
peach flavour to the taste and in my view is for times when you really
want to wallow in the taste of a cup of tea. Lapsang is a sort of smoky
bacon tea and sometimes in simply the only thing that will really do.
Currently I've only got some Lapsang and some Tetley's tea bags.
^^^^^^^^
At last, you named a brand I've actually heard of...!
Aside from Whittards and Tetley they aren't brands they are types of tea.
Most of the commonly seen tea bags are a blend of several types of tea,
usually involving Assam and Orange Pekoe.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-07-04 14:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
Aside from Whittards and Tetley they aren't brands they are types of tea.
Most of the commonly seen tea bags are a blend of several types of tea,
usually involving Assam and Orange Pekoe.
Well anyway, if you're coming round, all I have in stock is a box of these:
http://www.dilmahtea.com/web/our_teas/product_guide.asp?category=7&page_id=1

Dilmah claims to be "the only Ethical Tea"
<http://www.dilmahtea.com/web/our_teas/ethical.asp> but personally I
believe one should take anything claiming to be "the only ethical X"
with a large pinch of salt. This puts me in a serious moral dilemma,
because I simply cannot bring myself to drink tea with salt.

Adrian.
Midgardette
2005-07-03 23:09:34 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Midgardette
So what is with the idea of leaving tea to steep for X number of minutes? I
thought there was some kind of rule. It sounds to me like you're standing
over the pot with a stop watch waiting to pour after 3 minutes.
To get a perfect cup probably requires that sort of accuracy. To my mind
there's around a thirty second "window" during which the tea is pretty
much at it's best, though when that is depends on the type of tea. Assam
is ready before three minutes is up, Darjeeling is still fine after four
minutes.
My mother-'n-law steeps her tea (Orange Pekoe) for around 30 minutes or so,
pouring the hot water before everyone sits down to dinner and then serving
after dessert. Not only does the tea have 'body', it has a mind of its own.
<snip>
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Midgardette
The best shape container to brew tea in is a sphere since it
Post by Eric Jarvis
allows the tea leaves the maximum chance to move around without being
against the surface of the container or trapped by other yea leaves. For
the purpose of brewing tea a traditional tea pot is close enough to
spherical. Spherical tea bags would be a pain to manufacture and pack.
I believe this can be achieved with a tea ball.
Sounds like a neat invention.
http://www.trocadero.com/conn/items/409670/item409670store.html


I've used one off and on. It's messy to clean out and if packed too full can
explode as the tea leaves absorb water.

<snipity>
Post by Eric Jarvis
When I've got the money I like to keep a stock of Darjeeling, Assam,
Orange Pekoe, Oolong, and Lapsang Souchong. The Whittards of Chelsea
Oolong is my favourite but it's hideously expensive compared to PG Tips.
Assam makes a good heavy duty wake up tea. Darjeeling is a really nice
light evening tea. Orange Pekoe is the main ingredient in most decent
blended teas and works well as an all purpose tea as well as making the
Assam a little less "heavy" when blended with it. Oolong has a hint of
peach flavour to the taste and in my view is for times when you really
want to wallow in the taste of a cup of tea. Lapsang is a sort of smoky
bacon tea and sometimes in simply the only thing that will really do.
Currently I've only got some Lapsang and some Tetley's tea bags.
I love the Constant Comment blend by Bigelow. It has a lot of citrus
(bergemot perhaps?). Now that doesnt need milk.
Post by Eric Jarvis
At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31 different
types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full member of the society
you had to have completed the set. There was one attempt to go through the
lot in 24 hours and only two of us made it.
LOL! Surely you didn't drink full cups? Sounds like a hoot anyway. What is
IC? A college?

Midgardette
"A good book and a cuppa tea. Could life get much better?"
Maaike
2005-07-04 01:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midgardette
My mother-'n-law steeps her tea (Orange Pekoe) for around 30 minutes or
so, pouring the hot water before everyone sits down to dinner and then
serving after dessert. Not only does the tea have 'body', it has a mind of
its own.
She's not from Newfoundland, is she?

-Maaike (We also have a long-standing tradition of putting two or three
teabags in a pot in the morning, and adding bags and water as the day goes
on. You can imagine what the tea is like by evening.)
naomi
2005-07-04 08:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Midgardette
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Rgemini
<thnip thtuff about tea and milk firtht or latht>
<snipping more thtuff>
Post by Eric Jarvis
A former flatmate of mine studied the brewing of tea for his chemistry
PhD. Another former flat mate is, the last I heard, the most senior woman
anywhere in the tea industry. I work on the basis that they probably know
a little bit about how to make a decent cuppa. My taste buds agree.
You are pretty much spot on in every respect, apart from number 5 which is
just plain wrong.
What happens is that the flavours come out of the tea leaf first, the
tanning starts dissolving into the liquor after three minutes or so. So
the longer you leave the tea infusing the more bitter it will taste, and
from around five minutes all that will happen is there will be more
tannin. So what you get after the first run at the pot will taste
significantly different, and unless you like lots of tannin it will taste
a lot worse. You can ameliorate it a little by adding some more tea leaves
as well as more hot water, but by and large the only reason to attempt to
get more than a single round from a pot is lack of tea.
Tea bags aren't as good as leaf tea in a decent pot. However the pyramid
or round bags really do make a better cup of tea than traditional tea
bags. The reason for this is that you need to get the maximum amount of
flavour infused in the first few minutes before the tannin kicks in.
So what is with the idea of leaving tea to steep for X number of minutes? I
thought there was some kind of rule. It sounds to me like you're standing
over the pot with a stop watch waiting to pour after 3 minutes.
To get a perfect cup probably requires that sort of accuracy. To my mind
there's around a thirty second "window" during which the tea is pretty
much at it's best, though when that is depends on the type of tea. Assam
is ready before three minutes is up, Darjeeling is still fine after four
minutes.
Post by Midgardette
So
Post by Eric Jarvis
the more surface area of the leaves that can be exposed to the water the
better.
Do you stir?
I would guess that would help, but would mean opening the top of the tea
pot and thus losing heat.
Post by Midgardette
The best shape container to brew tea in is a sphere since it
Post by Eric Jarvis
allows the tea leaves the maximum chance to move around without being
against the surface of the container or trapped by other yea leaves. For
the purpose of brewing tea a traditional tea pot is close enough to
spherical. Spherical tea bags would be a pain to manufacture and pack.
I believe this can be achieved with a tea ball.
Sounds like a neat invention.
Post by Midgardette
Post by Eric Jarvis
The darker the tea pot the better, and it's best if it's made of something
that insulates well. So the classic brown china tea pot is still probably
the best thing to use.
There is a measurable chemical difference depending on whether the milk
goes in the cup before or after the tea. However it's purely a matter of
taste which you prefer. Some deviants will always prefer tea with the milk
put in after the tea. No amount of persuasion will get the poor deluded
unfortunates to accept the error of their ways, they just prefer the yea
to taste wrong. People who claim there is no difference simply can't taste
well enough to tell. I have no problem with this so long as they ate
willing to accept that they are just plain wrong and should put the milk
in the cup first even though they can't taste the difference.
My thanks for the tea-mendous education. You seem to have soaked up the
information from you flatmate. Do you have a favourite brand, blend or
combination of teas?
When I've got the money I like to keep a stock of Darjeeling, Assam,
Orange Pekoe, Oolong, and Lapsang Souchong. The Whittards of Chelsea
Oolong is my favourite but it's hideously expensive compared to PG Tips.
Assam makes a good heavy duty wake up tea. Darjeeling is a really nice
light evening tea. Orange Pekoe is the main ingredient in most decent
blended teas and works well as an all purpose tea as well as making the
Assam a little less "heavy" when blended with it. Oolong has a hint of
peach flavour to the taste and in my view is for times when you really
want to wallow in the taste of a cup of tea. Lapsang is a sort of smoky
bacon tea and sometimes in simply the only thing that will really do.
Currently I've only got some Lapsang and some Tetley's tea bags.
At IC we had an unofficial tea society. Between us we had 31 different
types of tea (not counting blends), to become a full member of the society
you had to have completed the set. There was one attempt to go through the
lot in 24 hours and only two of us made it.
--
eric - afprelationships in header
My Grandmother always told me to turn the pot in a clockwise direction 3
times, I always thought it was a superstition, but reading the above I'm
wondering if itcould be instead of stirring...thoughts?

n
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-04 18:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by naomi
My Grandmother always told me to turn the pot in a clockwise direction 3
times, I always thought it was a superstition, but reading the above I'm
wondering if itcould be instead of stirring...thoughts?
Makes sense to me. It should be just enough to keep the tea leaves
"agitated" for several minutes.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Edward Cherlin
2005-07-04 03:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
Post by Rgemini
<thnip thtuff about tea and milk firtht or latht>
I've been making and drinking tea for well over 40 years and my
5) if you keep topping the pot up with freshly boiled water you can get
lots of cups of good tea
You are pretty much spot on in every respect, apart from number 5 which is
just plain wrong.
What happens is that the flavours come out of the tea leaf first, the
tanning starts dissolving into the liquor after three minutes or so. So
the longer you leave the tea infusing the more bitter it will taste, and
from around five minutes all that will happen is there will be more
tannin. So what you get after the first run at the pot will taste
significantly different, and unless you like lots of tannin it will taste
a lot worse.
This is true of English tea-making. (I lived in Northumberland for 15
months, and have actual experience to back up my story.) Midgardette
evidently doesn't mind the tannin, which is true of other English persons I
know who claim that the tea isn't ready until you can stand a spoon up in
it. They told me that five minutes is about right, certainly no less.
Post by Eric Jarvis
You can ameliorate it a little by adding some more tea leaves
as well as more hot water, but by and large the only reason to attempt to
get more than a single round from a pot is lack of tea.
This may well be the reason for these customs. The shortage of tea lasted
for years after the war. During rationing the only way to have enough
tea-oid was to steep it too long, and several times over. It's quite
remarkable what you can get to liking after you have to get used to it.[1]
See also The Goon Show, The Jet-Propelled Guided NAAFI, in which ten
thousand gallons of tea in Malaya was kept on the boil until they could fly
in enough troops to drink it. Economy drive, you know.[2]

On the other hand, in China and Japan (but not Korea, which drinks Merkin
tea with way too much sugar, or roasted barley "tea"), tea is often made by
pouring water over lots of tea leaves in a pot, and then setting down the
kettle, picking up the pot, and pouring immediately. This is done
deliberately, with no haste. You want to pour all of the tea out, so it
doesn't go on steeping. Some connoisseurs claim that the second pot is the
best, using this technique. I was once taken to the home of a tea expert in
Mie-Ken, Japan, who subscribed to this theory. He discarded the first pot,
and only served the second and third.

[1] Wartime shortages and their extension into peacetime have also been
blamed for the destruction of pre-War British cookery, which I am told did
not consist of boiling everything to death. Based on my experience of some
of the survivals, including British cheeses, sweets, marmalades, pasties
and pies, and Yorkshire pudding, I am inclined to give credence to this
theory.

[2] Neddie Seagoon, Prime Minister of No Fixed Abode: Let's see, cost of
tea, 7 pounds 10. Cost of flying troops to Malaya, quarter of a million
pounds. That comes to...Ah, the Minister of Finance! Just the man I wanted
to see. What's a quarter of a million pounds plus seven pounds ten?

MoF (Eccles): (Pause) I resign! You can't talk to me like dat!
Eric Jarvis
2005-07-04 05:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Cherlin
[1] Wartime shortages and their extension into peacetime have also been
blamed for the destruction of pre-War British cookery, which I am told did
not consist of boiling everything to death. Based on my experience of some
of the survivals, including British cheeses, sweets, marmalades, pasties
and pies, and Yorkshire pudding, I am inclined to give credence to this
theory.
The Victorians share some of the blame for that too.
--
eric - afprelationships in headers
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Graycat
2005-07-04 11:12:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 03:08:32 GMT, Edward Cherlin
Post by Edward Cherlin
On the other hand, in China and Japan (but not Korea, which drinks Merkin
tea with way too much sugar, or roasted barley "tea"), tea is often made by
pouring water over lots of tea leaves in a pot, and then setting down the
kettle, picking up the pot, and pouring immediately. This is done
deliberately, with no haste. You want to pour all of the tea out, so it
doesn't go on steeping.
That's vaguely like how I make my tea, on those rare
occasions when I make tea. I use teabags, which I've come to
understand is an abomniation, but I never leave it in the
cup. I put the teabag in first, pour water on top of it and
then throw away the teabag. Makes it just about the right
strength for me.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
S.C.Sprong
2005-07-04 17:50:00 UTC
Permalink
I use teabags, which I've come to understand is an abomniation
It's not the teabags, it's what goes into commericial baggies what
makes them an abomination: floor sweepings, rat droppings, cigarette
stumps, and whatnot, and sometimes, sometimes a teeny tiny bit of tea
dust.

No, paper tea bags are ok. The Germans, who have as a culture a total
obsession with their internal plumbing ('Kreislauf') brew herbal tea
from everything that is small enough to be put inside a largish
do-it-yourself paper tea bag and can't climb out in time.

For outsiders the beautiful thing is that these DIY teabags are sold
safely outside Germany. I always use those but put proper long-leafed
tea in them.

Currently an Oolong Ti Kuan Yin. Mmmm...

scs
Werehatrack
2005-06-24 01:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clare
However, I have noticed a worrying habit that one of them has. I don't
know which because it happened while I was out, but someone feline has
been eating the cotton ends - plastic and all - off some cotton buds!
Needless to say I was concerned for a while and removed the cotton buds
out of feline reach, but so far no ill effects have presented
themselves....
Has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?
It's not unusual. Before we banned the cats from the bedroom half of
the house, raids on the supplies of odd small items were frequent, and
the item you mentioned was frequently a target of the activities.
More than once, a trail of them was found scattered across the floor
in the hall, some clearly gnawed, and others just batted about until
thoroughly coated with dust and cat hair.

Sleeping (and such) is much more placid now, with the connecting door
kept shut.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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