Discussion:
[R] A Question about Feet of Clay (Spoiler)
(too old to reply)
Falooda
2008-11-01 11:37:55 UTC
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Spoilers for Feet of Clay:

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In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
Puck
2008-11-01 12:18:22 UTC
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Post by Falooda
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In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
Well, it might have been a step in the right direction, but it wouldn't
have achieved everything he wanted. It wouldn't have restored the
monarchy, or gotten Vetinari out of the way. And it wouldn't have been
very tidy. The Watch would definitely go berserk over the murder of one
of their own.

And I doubt Carrot is the sort of person the conspirators would want on
the throne even if we wasn't dating a lycanthrope. He's too idealistic
and noble. What they needed was someone they could manipulate. Enter
Nobby, who seems content to guzzle booze, tell dirty jokes, and eat
trash food all day, and isn't exactly one of natures great politcal
reformers.
Catja Pafort
2008-11-02 15:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Puck
I doubt Carrot is the sort of person the conspirators would want on
the throne even if we wasn't dating a lycanthrope. He's too idealistic
and noble. What they needed was someone they could manipulate. Enter
Nobby, who seems content to guzzle booze, tell dirty jokes, and eat
trash food all day, and isn't exactly one of natures great politcal
reformers.
On the other hand, Nobby has no ambition, and appears to be almost
unbribeable. In small things, yes, but not on a large scale.

Catja
--
writing blog @ http://beyond-elechan.livejournal.com
Richard Bos
2008-11-02 22:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Catja Pafort
Post by Puck
I doubt Carrot is the sort of person the conspirators would want on
the throne even if we wasn't dating a lycanthrope. He's too idealistic
and noble. What they needed was someone they could manipulate. Enter
Nobby, who seems content to guzzle booze, tell dirty jokes, and eat
trash food all day, and isn't exactly one of natures great politcal
reformers.
On the other hand, Nobby has no ambition, and appears to be almost
unbribeable. In small things, yes, but not on a large scale.
They only _need_ to bribe him in small things - or at least, that's
their view. AFATheyCT, he's a lazy layabout who only wants to be kept
comfortable and have a steady supply of fags, and they are quite willing
to give him that, in return for a couple of favourable edicts a day.
Whether they're right about that is a different matter; to explain their
behaviour, all you need to know is what they believe, not whether they
believe so correctly.

Richard
Eric Jarvis
2008-11-03 00:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Bos
Post by Catja Pafort
Post by Puck
I doubt Carrot is the sort of person the conspirators would want on
the throne even if we wasn't dating a lycanthrope. He's too idealistic
and noble. What they needed was someone they could manipulate. Enter
Nobby, who seems content to guzzle booze, tell dirty jokes, and eat
trash food all day, and isn't exactly one of natures great politcal
reformers.
On the other hand, Nobby has no ambition, and appears to be almost
unbribeable. In small things, yes, but not on a large scale.
They only _need_ to bribe him in small things - or at least, that's
their view. AFATheyCT, he's a lazy layabout who only wants to be kept
comfortable and have a steady supply of fags, and they are quite willing
to give him that, in return for a couple of favourable edicts a day.
Whether they're right about that is a different matter; to explain their
behaviour, all you need to know is what they believe, not whether they
believe so correctly.
In my view it's all down to one misunderstanding, and one based on
"class". The upper class view is that to be Patrician means privilege,
and thus it's giving Nobby something he's bound to want. The lower class
view is that to be Patrician means responsibility. It's volunteering,
putting your head above the parapet and thus inviting some bastard to
chop it off.

There's no way that Nobby will take up the offer. To him there's a huge
downside and he's got no experience from which to conclude there may be
anything positive about it. To the plotters there is no downside to the
offer they are making. Largely because unless he accepts it Nobby pretty
much has no existence as far as they are concerned.
--
eric
To a man who only has a hammer every job looks
like one for somebody with a proper toolkit.
Kevin Wells
2008-11-02 23:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Catja Pafort
Post by Puck
I doubt Carrot is the sort of person the conspirators would want on
the throne even if we wasn't dating a lycanthrope. He's too idealistic
and noble. What they needed was someone they could manipulate. Enter
Nobby, who seems content to guzzle booze, tell dirty jokes, and eat
trash food all day, and isn't exactly one of natures great politcal
reformers.
On the other hand, Nobby has no ambition, and appears to be almost
unbribeable. In small things, yes, but not on a large scale.
He was more scared of Vimes, than what possible rewards he could get.
Post by Catja Pafort
Catja
--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561
Motorcycling News http://bikes.kevsoft.co.uk/
Nigel Stapley
2008-11-01 12:45:27 UTC
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Post by Falooda
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Post by Falooda
In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
It would also have meant that the book would have been under 100 pages long.
--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.thejudge.me.uk

<reply-to will bounce>
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-01 14:47:34 UTC
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Post by Nigel Stapley
Post by Falooda
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Post by Falooda
In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
It would also have meant that the book would have been under 100 pages long.
Well, they could always Hamilton the book with larger fonts, wider margins
and reoccurring decorations. That'd boost the page count.

Regards,
--
*Art
Lister
2008-11-01 23:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Well, they could always Hamilton the book with larger fonts, wider margins
and reoccurring decorations. That'd boost the page count.
Regards,
Hamilton?
John Hinge
2008-11-03 09:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lister
Post by Arthur Hagen
Well, they could always Hamilton the book with larger fonts, wider
margins and reoccurring decorations. That'd boost the page count.
Hamilton?
I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a reference to the Scifi
writer Peter F. Hamilton, whose books tend to run somewhat long in
the pagecounts..
that said, I really like his Books, especially his Nights Dawn
trilogy.. come on.. How often do you get a Deus ex Machina
that is not just a plot device, but a genuine bona fide monorail erhm
Deus Ex Machina, in there for a reason and everything..
At least thats what I get from the story.. Your mileage and all that..
--
John Hinge - shayera / .sPOOn.
On usenet I represent no one but myself.
"You're basing your Pixie Faerie on Vin Diesel ? I'll say it again..
Are you on Drugs ?" Gordo - The Black Hand - KotDT #79
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-03 12:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hinge
Post by Lister
Post by Arthur Hagen
Well, they could always Hamilton the book with larger fonts, wider
margins and reoccurring decorations. That'd boost the page count.
Hamilton?
I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a reference to the Scifi
writer Peter F. Hamilton, whose books tend to run somewhat long in
the pagecounts..
No, the other Hamilton who writes smut for undersexed females.
Allegedly, many of her books have become shorter, while retaining the page
count.

Regards,
--
*Art
John Hinge
2008-11-04 09:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
No, the other Hamilton who writes smut for undersexed females.
Allegedly, many of her books have become shorter, while retaining
the page count.
Her later 'books' have become somewhat equal opportunity in
the target audience. The smut is more both in volume and
explicitness.. And disturbingly enough, this is not necessarily
a good thing. the earler Anita Blake novels do have some mitigating
factors.. Well kinda.. Well they're entertaining smut darn it..
--
John Hinge - shayera / .sPOOn.
On usenet I represent no one but myself.
"You're basing your Pixie Faerie on Vin Diesel ? I'll say it again..
Are you on Drugs ?" Gordo - The Black Hand - KotDT #79
Esmeraldus
2008-11-04 19:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hinge
Post by Arthur Hagen
No, the other Hamilton who writes smut for undersexed females.
Allegedly, many of her books have become shorter, while retaining
the page count.
Her later 'books' have become somewhat equal opportunity in
the target audience. The smut is more both in volume and
explicitness.. And disturbingly enough, this is not necessarily
a good thing. the earler Anita Blake novels do have some mitigating
factors.. Well kinda.. Well they're entertaining smut darn it..
I like Anita Blake, and feel no particular need to apologize for it.

I did like them a little better when it was more 50/50 supernatural smut and
horror/detective novel, though. She's moved away from the horror and
detective novel more than I like. I don't mind keeping the smut. To quote
TOm Lehrer on obscenity, "I'm for it."

But I want my detective novels back.
Rocky Frisco
2008-11-03 20:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hinge
Post by Lister
Post by Arthur Hagen
Well, they could always Hamilton the book with larger fonts, wider
margins and reoccurring decorations. That'd boost the page count.
Hamilton?
I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a reference to the Scifi
writer Peter F. Hamilton, whose books tend to run somewhat long in
the pagecounts..
that said, I really like his Books, especially his Nights Dawn
trilogy.. come on.. How often do you get a Deus ex Machina
that is not just a plot device, but a genuine bona fide monorail erhm
Deus Ex Machina, in there for a reason and everything..
At least thats what I get from the story.. Your mileage and all that..
One of the characters in "Raccoon's Law" is Deus X. McKenna, who
appears late in the book, to explain things. He is unable to succeed,
since the Cosmic Trigger has been grabbed by his Yorkshire Terrier,
McGuffin, whom he can't find.

-Rock
--
SteveD
2008-11-04 07:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hinge
the Scifi
writer Peter F. Hamilton, whose books tend to run somewhat long in
the pagecounts..
that said, I really like his Books, especially his Nights Dawn
trilogy.. come on.. How often do you get a Deus ex Machina
that is not just a plot device, but a genuine bona fide monorail erhm
Deus Ex Machina, in there for a reason and everything.
It is all that, but IMO it's not written well enough to overcome its
literary origins. It's just as abrupt and boring and unexplained as the
cliche.

From what I can tell, Hamilton writes jaw-droppingly epic, hugely complex
galactic-level plots, filled with action, drama, and suspense, but is
bloody useless when it comes time to _stop_ writing the story.

I get an impression of a padded room in some anonymous location, where a
gaunt figure is hunched over a typewriter, eyes blazing, hammering away
for twenty hours a day, surrounded by blizzard-like drifts of prose. Every
couple of months, a publisher sweeps the accumulated paper outside,
commissions a ten-page "ending", and goes to the presses.


-SteveD
John Hinge
2008-11-04 09:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveD
From what I can tell, Hamilton writes jaw-droppingly epic, hugely
complex galactic-level plots, filled with action, drama, and
suspense, but is bloody useless when it comes time to _stop_
writing the story.
That sounds about right..
Post by SteveD
I get an impression of a padded room in some anonymous location,
where a gaunt figure is hunched over a typewriter, eyes blazing,
hammering away for twenty hours a day, surrounded by blizzard-like
drifts of prose. Every couple of months, a publisher sweeps the
accumulated paper outside, commissions a ten-page "ending", and
goes to the presses.
it would certainly explain a thing or two.. ;)

All that said, I still must admit to liking reading his bricks erhm
books.. they're just entertaining enough for me.
--
John Hinge - shayera / .sPOOn.
On usenet I represent no one but myself.
"You're basing your Pixie Faerie on Vin Diesel ? I'll say it again..
Are you on Drugs ?" Gordo - The Black Hand - KotDT #79
Eric Jarvis
2008-11-04 12:35:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hinge
Post by SteveD
From what I can tell, Hamilton writes jaw-droppingly epic, hugely
complex galactic-level plots, filled with action, drama, and
suspense, but is bloody useless when it comes time to _stop_
writing the story.
That sounds about right..
Not to me it doesn't. I'd recommend the three Greg Mandel novels. They
are basically a sort of sf whodunit/spy thriller sort of thing, and by
far his best writing. He's not actually all that good at epics. Whereas
with a tightly plotted murder mystery he's not got any space in which to
ramble.

Avoid Misspent Youth at all costs. It's like the worst self indulgent
excesses of late Heinlein without the vision and craft.
--
eric
Live fast, die only if strictly necessary.
Lizzy Taylor
2008-11-04 13:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Jarvis
Avoid Misspent Youth at all costs. It's like the worst self indulgent
excesses of late Heinlein without the vision and craft.
Oh I dunno, I rather enjoyed it. At least it wasn't as deeply
depressing and long-winded as Neutronium Alchemist.

Lizzy
Mark L Pappin
2008-11-06 21:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lizzy Taylor
Post by Eric Jarvis
Avoid Misspent Youth at all costs. It's like the worst self
indulgent excesses of late Heinlein without the vision and craft.
Oh I dunno, I rather enjoyed it. At least it wasn't as deeply
depressing and long-winded as Neutronium Alchemist.
Which in turn was my introduction to PFH, and put me off adding any
more of his work to my ReadMe-queue.

mlp
Daibhid Ceanaideach
2008-11-07 20:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lizzy Taylor
Post by Eric Jarvis
Avoid Misspent Youth at all costs. It's like the worst self indulgent
excesses of late Heinlein without the vision and craft.
Oh I dunno, I rather enjoyed it. At least it wasn't as deeply
depressing and long-winded as Neutronium Alchemist.
Which is the one that got mentioned here before because a far-future
schoolteacher refers to "the classics: Tolkien and Pratchett"?
--
Dave
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse.
And the name of him who sat on it was Death.
And the name of the horse was Binky.
Charles A Lieberman
2008-11-07 14:30:54 UTC
Permalink
11/1/2008 7:45:24 AM Nigel Stapley
Post by Nigel Stapley
Post by Falooda
S
[snip an awful lot of spoiler space for a fifteen-year-old book]
Post by Nigel Stapley
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[...]
Post by Nigel Stapley
Post by Falooda
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
It would also have meant that the book would have been under 100 pages long.
That's a side criticism; if Pterry had sat down to write about a vestigial
A-M noble trying to kill Angua, I'm sure he could have gotten a book out of
it.

I don't mean that in a fawning fanboy way, but I've written things that wound
up longer than planned
--
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "The explanation is extremely simple.
Brooklyn, New York, USA | It doesn't happen."
| --Nick Spalding
http://calieber.livejournal.com ***@gmail.com
Joerg Ruedenauer
2008-11-01 13:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Falooda
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In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Not so. He actually did approve, because Angua has a good pedigree.

But he didn't want the changes Vetinari brought, with a more flexible
society, where commoners rise to power, marry nobles, and the blood
lines are mixed. A king would put Dragon back into control over his
breeding program.

It is to be expected that Carrot as king would have continued Vetinari's
politics.

Joerg
--
"Quoth the raven: Nevermore!" -- E.A.Poe
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-01 14:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Falooda
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In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
Because you can't unspoil milk.

To Dragon, Ankh-Morpork is like a sister or daughter. I bet that many would
not idly stand by and let their sisters or daughters marry a guy who was
known for fornicating with animals. Killing the animals in question would
do nothing to help that situation.

Regards,
--
*Art
Charles A Lieberman
2008-11-07 14:38:07 UTC
Permalink
11/1/2008 9:44:03 AM "Arthur Hagen"
Post by Arthur Hagen
I bet that many would
not idly stand by and let their sisters or daughters marry a guy who was
known for fornicating with animals. Killing the animals in question would
do nothing to help that situation.
See, now I'm thinking of the Thomas Granger case in Duxbury, Massachusetts,
in 1642.

Sure enough, after they executed the animals, they proceded to execute
Granger
--
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "The explanation is extremely simple.
Brooklyn, New York, USA | It doesn't happen."
| --Nick Spalding
http://calieber.livejournal.com ***@gmail.com
GaryN
2008-11-01 16:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Falooda
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In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Capulet and Montague. Actually Dragon didn't approve of the possible
outcome (or litter) from said relationship.
Post by Falooda
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.

Please feel free to look for some.
Post by Falooda
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
Almost anything would be simpler than poisoning Vetinari.

gary

[1]Sorry, cant remember the code for an e with the slanty bit on top.
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Falooda
2008-11-01 16:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
Puck
2008-11-01 18:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
Chris Zakes
2008-11-02 02:45:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:35:49 -0400, an orbital mind-control laser
Post by Puck
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
I *think* that only works if you have bionic legs, or the right kind
of car or spaceship. Ordinary mortals will still be toasted.

(Speaking of which, here's an amusing "Jack-o-lantern" my wife ran
across a couple of days ago:
Loading Image... )

-Chris Zakes
Texas

As for myself, I am simply Hop-Frog, the jester--and this is my last jest.

-"Hop-Frog" by Edgar Allen Poe
GaryN
2008-11-02 11:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Zakes
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:35:49 -0400, an orbital mind-control laser
Post by Puck
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element
"Narrativium" (not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which
would allow this to happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
I *think* that only works if you have bionic legs, or the right kind
of car or spaceship. Ordinary mortals will still be toasted.
(Speaking of which, here's an amusing "Jack-o-lantern" my wife ran
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2117/deathstarif3.jpg )
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

gary
--
"Dirty Deeds;
Done Dirt Cheap."

AC/DC - "DDDDC"
Lesley Weston
2008-11-02 16:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Chris Zakes wrote:

<snip>
Post by Chris Zakes
(Speaking of which, here's an amusing "Jack-o-lantern" my wife ran
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2117/deathstarif3.jpg )
That's lovely! If you're going to do it at all, you might as well /do/ it.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Stacie
2008-11-03 02:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Puck
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
Or, if the Narrativium is feeling playful, you're simply blown
harmlessly out of the nearest egress and generally land in something
amusing.
John Wilkins
2008-11-03 02:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stacie
Post by Puck
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
Or, if the Narrativium is feeling playful, you're simply blown
harmlessly out of the nearest egress and generally land in something
amusing.
What is the critical mass of refined narrativium? *Could* you refine it,
or would the resulting Pure Plot be unmanageable and incredible,
eliminating all subsidiary characters in a flash? What would shield
Narrativium? Dull Sublunary Elements? What is its atomic number?
Questions abound...
--
John S. Wilkins, Philosophy, University of Queensland
scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre
GaryN
2008-11-03 11:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilkins
Post by Stacie
Post by Puck
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element
"Narrativium" (not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which
would allow this to happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
Or, if the Narrativium is feeling playful, you're simply blown
harmlessly out of the nearest egress and generally land in something
amusing.
What is the critical mass of refined narrativium? *Could* you refine
it, or would the resulting Pure Plot be unmanageable and incredible,
eliminating all subsidiary characters in a flash? What would shield
Narrativium? Dull Sublunary Elements? What is its atomic number?
Questions abound...
If you ever get a critical mass of Narrativium it will spontaneously
rewrite the Universe to one in which literary critics do not exist.

Narrativium comes just below Neutronium in the (alphabetically ordered
like any sensible person would do it) Periodic Table. The two elements
have many things in common:

Nobody knows how to extract or refine the ores.

Both are frequently used as plot devices when the author runs out of
ideas/gets characters caught in a no-win situation.

They are incredibly dense and completely impervious to all known
weapons, including common sense.

The atomic number of both is unknown as the nuclear particles are so
closely packed that no-one has been able to count (or even identify with
any certainty) them.

hth

gary
--
"And Underneath The City,
The Alligators Sing,
Of How The Fool, He Cannot Dance,
'Cos Someone Cut The Strings"

Motorhead 'Lost Johnny'
Lesley Weston
2008-11-03 17:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilkins
Post by Stacie
Post by Puck
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
Or, if the Narrativium is feeling playful, you're simply blown
harmlessly out of the nearest egress and generally land in something
amusing.
What is the critical mass of refined narrativium?
Ask Esmeraldus. She's currently putting a great deal of effort into
becoming qualified to find out.
Post by John Wilkins
*Could* you refine it,
or would the resulting Pure Plot be unmanageable and incredible,
eliminating all subsidiary characters in a flash?
See action adventures.
Post by John Wilkins
What would shield
Narrativium?
Facts.
Post by John Wilkins
Dull Sublunary Elements? What is its atomic number?
666
Post by John Wilkins
Questions abound...
Indeed.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
@lec ©awley
2008-11-03 20:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Puck
Post by Falooda
Post by GaryN
You have clearly not discovered the revere[1]d element "Narrativium"
(not found on the Periodic Table; anywhere) which would allow this to
happen.
Please feel free to look for some.
Mining operations for Narrativium are currently underway.
I only hope it isn't radioactive or anything.
And pray that it doesn't explode.
It does, but you can outrun the fireball.
Out of which a single wheel will roll, humorously.
Lesley Weston
2008-11-01 17:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Falooda
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
Because he was insane. Occam's Razor meant nothing to him.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Nigel Stapley
2008-11-01 20:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Falooda
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
Because he was insane. Occam's Razor meant nothing to him.
But it would if it were slashfic.
--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.thejudge.me.uk

<reply-to will bounce>
Falooda
2008-11-02 08:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
  In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
  Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
Because he was insane. Occam's Razor meant nothing to him.
--
Lesley Weston
The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to learn about Occam's Razor:

"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."
GaryN
2008-11-06 13:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Falooda
"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."
Not exactly.

"The simplest explanation is the likeliest" is the best translation I've
been able to work out.

Although that may be a failure of the English language to adequately
express the concepts of a phrase in Arabic.

Frequently it depends on who the person is who is thinking about things,
their state of mind, the current political and financial state of their
country, the needs of their family (which obviously are connected with
the previously mentioned) and, finally, their personal desires.

The simplest solution tends to differ between men and women.

For men it's usually 'Hit something/someone with a big bit of sharp
metal and hope like Hell that you win because then you get the girl'

For women it's often 'Seduce the bloke who hit something/someone with a
big lump of sharp metal because he'll look after you'

Sod Philosophy, see Practicality and Reality.

gary
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Lesley Weston
2008-11-06 17:35:35 UTC
Permalink
GaryN wrote:

<snip>
Post by GaryN
The simplest solution tends to differ between men and women.
For men it's usually 'Hit something/someone with a big bit of sharp
metal and hope like Hell that you win because then you get the girl'
For women it's often 'Seduce the bloke who hit something/someone with a
big lump of sharp metal because he'll look after you'
Or "Hit something/someone with a big bit of sharp metal and hope like
Hell that you win because then you get the guy/prize/whatever."
Post by GaryN
Sod Philosophy, see Practicality and Reality.
Every time!
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
GaryN
2008-11-08 14:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>
Post by GaryN
The simplest solution tends to differ between men and women.
For men it's usually 'Hit something/someone with a big bit of sharp
metal and hope like Hell that you win because then you get the girl'
For women it's often 'Seduce the bloke who hit something/someone with
a big lump of sharp metal because he'll look after you'
Or "Hit something/someone with a big bit of sharp metal and hope like
Hell that you win because then you get the guy/prize/whatever."
You go with the "Herrena The Henna Haired Harridan" approach then
Lesley..;-)
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by GaryN
Sod Philosophy, see Practicality and Reality.
Every time!
Philosophy usually lets you down or doesn't work in the real world.
Practicality, reality and a big bit of sharp metal usually do the trick.

It seems to have worked for most Kings down the ages; and in Myth and
Legend.

Although I would have to admit that it's probably the practical,
realistic use of the big bits of sharp metal that ensured that was the
way it was reported.

So it goes...

gary
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Lesley Weston
2008-11-08 16:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by GaryN
Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>
Post by GaryN
The simplest solution tends to differ between men and women.
For men it's usually 'Hit something/someone with a big bit of sharp
metal and hope like Hell that you win because then you get the girl'
For women it's often 'Seduce the bloke who hit something/someone with
a big lump of sharp metal because he'll look after you'
Or "Hit something/someone with a big bit of sharp metal and hope like
Hell that you win because then you get the guy/prize/whatever."
You go with the "Herrena The Henna Haired Harridan" approach then
Lesley..;-)
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she waits
to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get truly
immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Elliott Grasett
2008-11-08 18:08:13 UTC
Permalink
Lesley Weston wrote:

<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she waits
to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get truly
immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
/Chicks/in/Chainmail/?
--
Cheers,
Elliott
Esmeraldus
2008-11-08 18:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she
waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get
truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
/Chicks/in/Chainmail/?
Jim Hines (editor/author) posted something on his LJ about a collection
called Damsels Causing Distress. I haven't read it, but it sounded
promising.
Joyce Haslam
2008-11-09 09:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while
she waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I
can't get truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
/Chicks/in/Chainmail/?
Swords and Sourceresses (Lackey)
(spelling?)

I don't care if it is fantasy or hard sf if the characters are
people I am interested in. Languishing damsels needn't apply.

Joyce.

Joyce.
--
"The spear in the Other's heart is in your own: you are he." -- Surak
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-09 15:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joyce Haslam
Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while
she waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I
can't get truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
/Chicks/in/Chainmail/?
Swords and Sourceresses (Lackey)
(spelling?)
I don't care if it is fantasy or hard sf if the characters are
people I am interested in. Languishing damsels needn't apply.
One of the common plots, used since the days of story telling and surviving
well into cypherpunk and parasmut or whatever else the genres of the day
are, is of the languishing female who gets abducted/rescued/abandoned/sent
to school. The new setting makes her flourish, turning her from a brainless
beauty into a heroine.
It's a story that works, which is why it's recycled over and over again.
--
*Art
Free Lunch
2008-11-09 17:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Joyce Haslam
Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while
she waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I
can't get truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
/Chicks/in/Chainmail/?
Swords and Sourceresses (Lackey)
(spelling?)
I don't care if it is fantasy or hard sf if the characters are
people I am interested in. Languishing damsels needn't apply.
One of the common plots, used since the days of story telling and surviving
well into cypherpunk and parasmut or whatever else the genres of the day
are, is of the languishing female who gets abducted/rescued/abandoned/sent
to school. The new setting makes her flourish, turning her from a brainless
beauty into a heroine.
It's a story that works, which is why it's recycled over and over again.
Vaguely related question. How many male generals have been executed for
being winning generals, and not for treason or other problems after the
fact?
GaryN
2008-11-10 15:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Joyce Haslam
Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while
she waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I
can't get truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
/Chicks/in/Chainmail/?
Swords and Sourceresses (Lackey)
(spelling?)
I don't care if it is fantasy or hard sf if the characters are
people I am interested in. Languishing damsels needn't apply.
One of the common plots, used since the days of story telling and
surviving well into cypherpunk and parasmut or whatever else the
genres of the day are, is of the languishing female who gets
abducted/rescued/abandoned/sent to school. The new setting makes her
flourish, turning her from a brainless beauty into a heroine.
It's a story that works, which is why it's recycled over and over again.
Vaguely related question. How many male generals have been executed
for being winning generals, and not for treason or other problems
after the fact?
Quite a lot, although usually quietly; after the smoke blew away.

Being popular with the public, for saving them from the enemy, is a
baaaaad place to be if your employer is King/El Presidente/Chairman of
the Supreme Soviet.

Being more publicly popular than "Da Boss" often counts as treason.

I'll try to get a tally tomorrow[1] but as we all know, history is
written by the winners..:-(

gary

[1]The SO is down with serious Flu and some bugger has nicked my
armchair (smoking outside for the use of) so I'm shuttling between
houses.
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Carol Hague
2008-11-08 19:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she waits
to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get truly
immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know how
to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you called
them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's female
characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion and Ru Emerson's
Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.

If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar the
whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers turn
women into shrinking violets.
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Daibhid Ceanaideach
2008-11-08 22:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she
waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get
truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know
how to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you
called them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's
female characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion and Ru
Emerson's Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar
the whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers
turn women into shrinking violets.
Come to think of it, I can't think of a fantasy writer who does that at
all. Looking at some of the best known *male* fantasy writers (OFiaH
excepted): Éowyn in LOTR is a fighter; Shannara has Amberle, who ISTR is
a bit wet, but also has Eretria the Rover and her female descendents,
amongst others; I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters; and while there's some very
disturbing sexual politics in Piers Anthony's stuff, I don't recall it
being because women were presented as helpless damsels.
--
Dave
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse.
And the name of him who sat on it was Death.
And the name of the horse was Binky.
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-09 01:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she
waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get
truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know
how to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you
called them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's
female characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion and Ru
Emerson's Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar
the whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers
turn women into shrinking violets.
Come to think of it, I can't think of a fantasy writer who does that
at all.
John Norman?

Regards,
--
*Art
Elliott Grasett
2008-11-09 01:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she
waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get
truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know
how to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you
called them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's
female characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion and Ru
Emerson's Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar
the whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers
turn women into shrinking violets.
Come to think of it, I can't think of a fantasy writer who does that
at all.
John Norman?
My wife and I once won third prize at a con costume ball, disguised
as a Gorean merchant and his pleasure slave. Of course, everyone
KNEW that we were playing against type.
--
Cheers,
Elliott
Charles A Lieberman
2008-11-09 16:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Elliott Grasett Sat, 08 Nov 2008 20:47:16 -0500
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Come to think of it, I can't think of a fantasy writer who does that
at all.
John Norman?
My wife and I once won third prize at a con costume ball, disguised
as a Gorean merchant and his pleasure slave. Of course, everyone
KNEW that we were playing against type.
I saw the first three books in a library once.
A school library.
A church school library.

And it wasn't some weird fundamentalist church, either, mainstream
Episcopalian (the American spelling of Church of England).
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "The explanation is extremely simple.
Brooklyn, New York, USA | It doesn't happen."
| --Nick Spalding
http://calieber.livejournal.com ***@gmail.com
Rocky Frisco
2008-11-09 17:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles A Lieberman
Elliott Grasett Sat, 08 Nov 2008 20:47:16 -0500
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Come to think of it, I can't think of a fantasy writer who does
that
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
at all.
John Norman?
My wife and I once won third prize at a con costume ball, disguised
as a Gorean merchant and his pleasure slave. Of course, everyone
KNEW that we were playing against type.
I saw the first three books in a library once.
A school library.
A church school library.
And it wasn't some weird fundamentalist church, either, mainstream
Episcopalian (the American spelling of Church of England).
I suspect nobody had read them.

When I was around 12 years old, I found "The Woman on the Beast" in my
school library. It had words like "motherfucker" and the Devil won the
final battle.

-Rock
--
Chris Zakes
2008-11-12 03:34:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:21:25 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
Post by Charles A Lieberman
Elliott Grasett Sat, 08 Nov 2008 20:47:16 -0500
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Come to think of it, I can't think of a fantasy writer who does
that
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
at all.
John Norman?
My wife and I once won third prize at a con costume ball, disguised
as a Gorean merchant and his pleasure slave. Of course, everyone
KNEW that we were playing against type.
I saw the first three books in a library once.
A school library.
A church school library.
And it wasn't some weird fundamentalist church, either, mainstream
Episcopalian (the American spelling of Church of England).
Well... IIRC, Norman doesn't really get going on his peculiar
obsessions until later in the series (I think I gave up in disgust
around #6 or 7.)

But as Rock said, it's equally plausible that the librarian had no
clue what was in those books, too.

-Chris Zakes
Texas
The Roman writer Juvenal's phrase "panem et circenses" is usually translated as
"bread and circuses". A more accurate modern rendering would be "pork barrel
projects".
Tiny Bulcher
2008-11-12 19:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Zakes
On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:21:25 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser
Post by Charles A Lieberman
Elliott Grasett Sat, 08 Nov 2008 20:47:16 -0500
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Come to think of it, I can't think of a fantasy writer who does
that
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
at all.
John Norman?
My wife and I once won third prize at a con costume ball, disguised
as a Gorean merchant and his pleasure slave. Of course, everyone
KNEW that we were playing against type.
I saw the first three books in a library once.
A school library.
A church school library.
And it wasn't some weird fundamentalist church, either, mainstream
Episcopalian (the American spelling of Church of England).
Well... IIRC, Norman doesn't really get going on his peculiar
obsessions until later in the series (I think I gave up in disgust
around #6 or 7.)
But as Rock said, it's equally plausible that the librarian had no
clue what was in those books, too.
I read recently that Richard Burton (no, not that one) donated a copy of
his unexpurgated translation of The Thousand Nights and One Night to the
library of some posh school in Bombay. It was discovered fifty years
later, apparently unread.
Carol Hague
2008-11-09 10:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a perfectly
valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish in the way he
seems to imply.
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Daibhid Ceanaideach
2008-11-09 13:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a
perfectly valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish in
the way he seems to imply.
This is true. I've always got the impression that Eddings writes strong
female characters by basing every single one of them directly on his wife,
which might have something to do with it.
--
Dave
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse.
And the name of him who sat on it was Death.
And the name of the horse was Binky.
Carol Hague
2008-11-09 16:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a
perfectly valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish in
the way he seems to imply.
This is true. I've always got the impression that Eddings writes strong
female characters by basing every single one of them directly on his wife,
which might have something to do with it.
Appallingly lazy writing, if so. But then, given that he's basically
managed to sell slightly altered versions of same story to his
publishers four times, I suppose it's not entirely surprising either.
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Lesley Weston
2008-11-09 17:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a
perfectly valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish in
the way he seems to imply.
This is true. I've always got the impression that Eddings writes strong
female characters by basing every single one of them directly on his wife,
which might have something to do with it.
After all, one can do a lot worse than emulate Heinlein.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Carol Hague
2008-11-09 20:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a
perfectly valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish in
the way he seems to imply.
This is true. I've always got the impression that Eddings writes strong
female characters by basing every single one of them directly on his wife,
which might have something to do with it.
After all, one can do a lot worse than emulate Heinlein.
That rather depends on which bits of Heinlein you're emulating....
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
GaryN
2008-11-10 16:26:52 UTC
Permalink
***@wrhpv.com (Carol Hague) wrote in news:1iq5nnl.hrsnnqbgc9apN%***@wrhpv.com:

<snippetry>
Post by Carol Hague
That rather depends on which bits of Heinlein you're emulating....
I personally don't want to emulate *any* of his bits.

At least Heinlein's female characters can look after themselves.

He tends to overemphasize the sexual side but...

I realise that part of the characterization was due to his own
suppressed urges but to be honest over the years I have known, and
currently know, women with similar tendancies and there seems to be a
certain trend.

They are always redheads or brunettes - never blonde[1].

Most of them ride/drive fast but safe, and they'll shout at you in
public if you don't (In my case I had Roz screaming abuse and throwing a
smackhat at me in the middle of Folkestone Sunday Market after I'd
slipped the back end of the bike on some sand (didn't drop it - just
scared her (and me!)))

The "I'll kick your balls out through your ears" attitude seems to come
along with the "%^$£ me raw and then I'll cook you breakfast" attitude.

Don't ask me why - ask Kat[2] or Gemma[3]

I like a SO who can swat her own damn spiders..;-)

Right.

That should upset someone (or everyone - particularly the blondes)
sufficiently to provoke an extended exchange so I'm off to look after
the current SO who has a rather bad case of the flu.

And her cat, who hasn't got flu but expects to be fed and be able to do
his pussy patrol at regular times.

See you tomorrow.

gary (provider of healthy vegetable soup to the afflicted)

[1]The standard 'Helpless Simpering Blonde' in the media may be true.
"Blondes get driven, they don't drive".

[2]From at least 6 feet away!

[3]Answer to the usual question - "I gargle"
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Lesley Weston
2008-11-10 18:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a
perfectly valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish in
the way he seems to imply.
This is true. I've always got the impression that Eddings writes strong
female characters by basing every single one of them directly on his wife,
which might have something to do with it.
After all, one can do a lot worse than emulate Heinlein.
That rather depends on which bits of Heinlein you're emulating....
Most of them. Sure, he had a few little problems, but that doesn't
invalidate everything else about him. Including his female characters
who were tall, super-intelligent, super-athletic, red-haired women.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Carol Hague
2008-11-10 20:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
After all, one can do a lot worse than emulate Heinlein.
That rather depends on which bits of Heinlein you're emulating....
Most of them. Sure, he had a few little problems, but that doesn't
invalidate everything else about him. Including his female characters
who were tall, super-intelligent, super-athletic, red-haired women.
Often with an uncomfortable degree of consanguinity to their sexual
partners in his later books though.

Early Heinlein is well-written space opera, albeit with the attitudes of
the time it was written, which can be a touch jarring at times.

Middle Heinlein is a mixed bag.

Late Heinlein (from _I Will Feel No Evil_ onwards) is self-indulgent
wallowing in sometimes bizarre sexual fantasies with occasioinal scraps
of plot.

All IMO of course.
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Carol Hague
2008-11-10 20:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Late Heinlein (from _I Will Feel No Evil_ onwards)
Bah. _I Will *Fear* No Evil_ I meant, of course...
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Lesley Weston
2008-11-11 01:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
After all, one can do a lot worse than emulate Heinlein.
That rather depends on which bits of Heinlein you're emulating....
Most of them. Sure, he had a few little problems, but that doesn't
invalidate everything else about him. Including his female characters
who were tall, super-intelligent, super-athletic, red-haired women.
Often with an uncomfortable degree of consanguinity to their sexual
partners in his later books though.
Early Heinlein is well-written space opera, albeit with the attitudes of
the time it was written, which can be a touch jarring at times.
And was written during his first marriage to a small, dark-haired woman
who may well have been super-intelligent but was probably not at all
athletic since she smoked like a badly-swept chimney. This is in Isaac
Asimov's autobiography.
Post by Carol Hague
Middle Heinlein is a mixed bag.
Written during his second marriage to a tall, super-intelligent,
super-athletic, red-haired woman.
Post by Carol Hague
Late Heinlein (from _I Will Feel No Evil_ onwards) is self-indulgent
wallowing in sometimes bizarre sexual fantasies with occasioinal scraps
of plot.
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of them.
But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls"; not "The
Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Carol Hague
2008-11-11 11:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of them.
But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls"; not "The
Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
I tried reading both _Friday_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ and
bounced off, hard. I thought they were dreadful tripe, but that's
subjective opinion of course.
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
GaryN
2008-11-11 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of
them. But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls";
not "The Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
I tried reading both _Friday_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
and bounced off, hard. I thought they were dreadful tripe, but that's
subjective opinion of course.
In that case don't, under any circumstances, try reading "To Sail Beyond
The Sunset" - it's truly bloody awful.

I quite liked "Friday" but "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" was
stretching things a bit.

And, oddly enough, I actually quite liked "The Number of the Beast".
The whole concept of the book brings us neatly back to multiple
universes being influenced by Narrativium.

How's that for a nicely relevant 'This discussion has now hit full
circle' closing comment?

Do I get a fat cigar?

gary
--
"All messed up and no place to go"

Gary Moore.
Esmeraldus
2008-11-11 15:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of
them. But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls";
not "The Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
I tried reading both _Friday_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
and bounced off, hard. I thought they were dreadful tripe, but that's
subjective opinion of course.
I like them for what they are.
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-11 22:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esmeraldus
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of
them. But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls";
not "The Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
I tried reading both _Friday_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
and bounced off, hard. I thought they were dreadful tripe, but that's
subjective opinion of course.
I like them for what they are.
A Freudian view into Heinlein's mind?

Many of Heinlein's books are excellent examples of the genre, and in some
cases even genre starters. He was truly great when he was great, but "Cat"
and "Sunset" are, IMHO, quite pathetic, and their /only/ virtue is being
written by Heinlein. Especially "Sunset", I think you have to be a die-hard
fanboi to appreciate.

"666" and "Friday" both have worth in that they both aired controversial
subjects of the time they were written, although I'd claim that "666" is, by
far, the better written book.

Regards,
--
*Art
Lesley Weston
2008-11-12 17:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Esmeraldus
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of
them. But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls";
not "The Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
I tried reading both _Friday_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
and bounced off, hard. I thought they were dreadful tripe, but that's
subjective opinion of course.
I like them for what they are.
A Freudian view into Heinlein's mind?
Many of Heinlein's books are excellent examples of the genre, and in
some cases even genre starters. He was truly great when he was great,
but "Cat" and "Sunset" are, IMHO, quite pathetic, and their /only/
virtue is being written by Heinlein. Especially "Sunset", I think you
have to be a die-hard fanboi to appreciate.
"666" and "Friday" both have worth in that they both aired controversial
subjects of the time they were written, although I'd claim that "666"
is, by far, the better written book.
His style was always excellent, but TNOTB is really a series of short
stories rather than a novel. It has some lovely snippets, but it really
doesn't go anywhere. "Friday" struck me as a return to his earlier,
pre-Lazarus-Long themes, where people of both sexes show good judgement
in difficult situations, thus generating a rattling good yarn and a
certain amount of thought on important ideas. As to TCWWTW, I read it
once a long time ago, so mostly I just remember that I enjoyed it.

So does anyone want to discuss the idea of LL as a Mary Sue, or is that
so obvious as to be banal? Oddly enough, I've just finished Joe
Haldemann's "The Forever War", which for some reason I'd never read
before (I read "Starship Troopers" long ago). The love interest is
called Marygay, but that's all she is - love interest, so the name is
just coincidence.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
The Stainless Steel Cat
2008-11-12 12:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esmeraldus
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of
them. But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls";
not "The Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
I tried reading both _Friday_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
and bounced off, hard. I thought they were dreadful tripe, but that's
subjective opinion of course.
I like them for what they are.
I like them both too, though Friday did have a few moments that made me go,
"What? Did I really just read that?". Number of the Beast was great, but "I
Will Feel No Evil" (I love that typo) for me *was* tripe.

Cat.
--
Jazz-Loving Soul Mate and Tolerable Frog to CCA
"By my writing, I amuse people and make them happy. My writing style is
simple, straightforward, and upbeat - nothing nasty or horrid or violent or
perverse. In this sad world, I think that anyone who spreads happiness
automatically justifies his existence." - Isaac Asimov
Esmeraldus
2008-11-12 16:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Stainless Steel Cat
Post by Esmeraldus
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Those that involved Lazarus Long's family, yes, which is most of
them. But "Friday" is good, and "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls";
not "The Number of the Beast", though. IMO.
I tried reading both _Friday_ and _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_
and bounced off, hard. I thought they were dreadful tripe, but
that's subjective opinion of course.
I like them for what they are.
I like them both too, though Friday did have a few moments that made
me go, "What? Did I really just read that?". Number of the Beast was
great, but "I Will Feel No Evil" (I love that typo) for me *was*
tripe.
Oh, man, NotB was the only one that I disliked on first reading. I actually
started to respect what I think Heinlein was trying to do when I read it the
second time.

I read it the second time because I was/am collaborating on a biography with
two other scholars, one living and one dead, about Heinlein's life and
works.

I was recruited into the project because my friend dislikes late-period
Heinlein, and I like some of it, and he felt that I could be a lot more
fair-minded about most of it than he could, which is true. So I found myself
searching forr the redeeming features of NotB. I decided that if it had any,
it was as a very experimental work of metafiction, which, though I
personally didn't like the characters very much and thought they bordered on
self-parody, did *attempt* to push the envelope of what was possible in
multiverse fiction at the time. And he might have been writing slightly
tongue-in-cheek.

So I still hate NotB, but I grudingly respect it as an experiment. But I
rather like Friday.
ingenious paradox
2008-11-12 21:29:30 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:55:41 -0500, "Esmeraldus"
Post by Esmeraldus
I decided that if it had any,
it was as a very experimental work of metafiction, which, though I
personally didn't like the characters very much and thought they bordered on
self-parody, did *attempt* to push the envelope of what was possible in
multiverse fiction at the time. And he might have been writing slightly
tongue-in-cheek.
So I still hate NotB, but I grudingly respect it as an experiment. But I
rather like Friday.
I liked NotB until they met the Longs.

Actually, I quite liked it afterwards but only on the first reading.
At least once I have stopped once they lock Lazarus in the loo.

The difficulties of leading a group of rugged individualists does tend
to pall after a while. Must remember not to read it after any of the
other Heinlein.

I agree about the tongue-in-cheek - especially Deety's first bit,
which really made me cringe because it reminded me of my writing aged
about thirteen.

Julie
"which is worse - incest or miscegenation?"

Arthur Hagen
2008-11-09 15:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a
perfectly valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish
in the way he seems to imply.
Universal enough that unless women on average settled down to raise at least
two babies, the human race would die out. Those who don't want to exist
too, but are not more common than to make them exceptions, or we would be in
trouble.

The wish is universal enough that even though China has for a long time had
a one child policy, their population has continued to grow.

So ascribing this wish to "pretty much all" females isn't too far from the
truth. Certainly much closer to the truth than sword-wielding ass-kicking
heroines.

Regards,
--
*Art
@lec ©awley
2008-11-09 16:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a
perfectly valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish
in the way he seems to imply.
Universal enough that unless women on average settled down to raise at
least two babies, the human race would die out. Those who don't want to
exist too, but are not more common than to make them exceptions, or we
would be in trouble.
The wish is universal enough that even though China has for a long time
had a one child policy, their population has continued to grow.
So ascribing this wish to "pretty much all" females isn't too far from
the truth. Certainly much closer to the truth than sword-wielding
ass-kicking heroines.
But the real world, or even the real medieval world, doesn't have many
sword-wielding kick-ass heroes either. Most of the ones claimed are
either fictional of have been well written up by their bards (cf The
Last Hero), by giving a good gloss to what were basically deeds of
ordinary thuggery and banditry.
Rocky Frisco
2008-11-09 17:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I've never been a huge fan of David Eddings, but he's got
plenty of strong female characters;
He has, yes. But if you notice, what pretty much all of them *really*
want is to settle down and have oodles of babies. Which is a perfectly
valid thing to want, but it's not a universal female wish in the way he
seems to imply.
My friend, Emily Kaitz, one of the funniest singer-songwriters I know,
has a song called: "The M-word scares the F-word outa me."

-Rock
--
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-09 01:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she
waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get
truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know
how to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you
called them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's
female characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion
You are correct -- it's not the damsels that are weak there, it's the
stories.
Post by Carol Hague
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar
the whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers
turn women into shrinking violets.
Well, it still beats those who turn them into unbelievable love machines.

Regards,
--
*Art
Lesley Weston
2008-11-09 17:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she waits
to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get truly
immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know how
to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you called
them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's female
characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion and Ru Emerson's
Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar the
whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers turn
women into shrinking violets.
It was an idle remark, not a judgment. Sorry if it upset you.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Carol Hague
2008-11-09 20:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she waits
to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get truly
immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know how
to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you called
them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's female
characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion and Ru Emerson's
Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar the
whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers turn
women into shrinking violets.
It was an idle remark, not a judgment. Sorry if it upset you.
It didn't upset me - I just thought it was a rather sweeping judgement
based on insufficient evidence and I wanted to balance the scales a bit
- I apologise if I sounded a bit sharp about it.
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
GaryN
2008-11-10 16:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she
waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get
truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know
how to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f
you called them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya
Huff's female characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion
and Ru Emerson's Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar
the whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers
turn women into shrinking violets.
It was an idle remark, not a judgment. Sorry if it upset you.
It didn't upset me - I just thought it was a rather sweeping judgement
based on insufficient evidence and I wanted to balance the scales a
bit - I apologise if I sounded a bit sharp about it.
If you're going to start apologising for "being a bit sharp" on afp may
I suggest that you should subscribe to alt.fan.crochet or
rec.cooking.scones?

Might be a better forum...;-)

As Lesley said in another thread (and I'm sorry if I get this wrong
Lesley - working from memory here 'cos I'm in a hurry)

"We don't argue on afp we have discussions - sometimes loudly"

gary
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Lesley Weston
2008-11-10 18:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by GaryN
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she
waits to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get
truly immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know
how to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f
you called them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya
Huff's female characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion
and Ru Emerson's Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar
the whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers
turn women into shrinking violets.
It was an idle remark, not a judgment. Sorry if it upset you.
It didn't upset me - I just thought it was a rather sweeping judgement
based on insufficient evidence and I wanted to balance the scales a
bit - I apologise if I sounded a bit sharp about it.
If you're going to start apologising for "being a bit sharp" on afp may
I suggest that you should subscribe to alt.fan.crochet or
rec.cooking.scones?
You haven't read any of afp's bread-product threads?
Post by GaryN
Might be a better forum...;-)
As Lesley said in another thread (and I'm sorry if I get this wrong
Lesley - working from memory here 'cos I'm in a hurry)
"We don't argue on afp we have discussions - sometimes loudly"
Close enough.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Carol Hague
2008-11-10 20:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by GaryN
If you're going to start apologising for "being a bit sharp" on afp may
I suggest that you should subscribe to alt.fan.crochet or
rec.cooking.scones?
I'll apologise if I bloody well want to and if you don't like it you can
sod off ! :-)

But seriously, the way you're talking, you'd think no-one was ever nice
to anybody on this group. I've always found the screaming rows to be the
exception rather than the rule, which is one reason why the one afp
regular in my killfile stays in there - he brings out the screaming
harridan in me, and I don't like her much.
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
GaryN
2008-11-11 14:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by GaryN
If you're going to start apologising for "being a bit sharp" on afp
may I suggest that you should subscribe to alt.fan.crochet or
rec.cooking.scones?
I'll apologise if I bloody well want to and if you don't like it you
can sod off ! :-)
Nah - been here (on and off) since '93; can't be arsed to move now..;-)


It was intended to be light hearted banter but NM
Post by Carol Hague
But seriously, the way you're talking, you'd think no-one was ever
nice to anybody on this group. I've always found the screaming rows to
be the exception rather than the rule.
Ummm, no I didn't intend to suggest that, and *I* apologise if you or
anyone else feels that I did. Let's face it though - things can
occasionally get a tad heated around here.
Post by Carol Hague
Which is one reason why the one afp
regular in my killfile stays in there - he brings out the screaming
harridan in me, and I don't like her much.
At least it's not me then..:-)

I'm guessing that your killfile has the same name in it as mine. Whilst
various people annoy me occasionally[1] one person infuriates me with
every post.

I've taken some liberties whilst editing your comments into this
post (I didn't change any words, just split them a bit).

I'm not going to apologise:-)

gary

[1]In the same way that, probably, I annoy them.
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Carol Hague
2008-11-11 15:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by GaryN
Post by Carol Hague
Post by GaryN
If you're going to start apologising for "being a bit sharp" on afp
may I suggest that you should subscribe to alt.fan.crochet or
rec.cooking.scones?
I'll apologise if I bloody well want to and if you don't like it you
can sod off ! :-)
Nah - been here (on and off) since '93; can't be arsed to move now..;-)
It was intended to be light hearted banter but NM
As was mine - hence the smiley - and if I'd really meant it, I've used
ruder words :-)
Post by GaryN
Post by Carol Hague
But seriously, the way you're talking, you'd think no-one was ever
nice to anybody on this group. I've always found the screaming rows to
be the exception rather than the rule.
Ummm, no I didn't intend to suggest that, and *I* apologise if you or
anyone else feels that I did.
It seemed to me that you were saying that the regular tone of afp was
rather sharper than the post I was apologising for, which surprised me,
because I thought otherwise. As Dick Emery would say "I got it wrong
again, Dad!" :-)
Post by GaryN
Let's face it though - things can
occasionally get a tad heated around here.
Well yes, but I always thought the nastiness was the exception rather
than the rule. Everybody gets ezasperated or has a horrible day
sometimes and posts stuff that they should maybe have thought twice
about . But as a long-term reader of rec.arts.doctorwho, I tend to view
afp as fairly fluffy by comparison most of the time :-)
Post by GaryN
Post by Carol Hague
Which is one reason why the one afp
regular in my killfile stays in there - he brings out the screaming
harridan in me, and I don't like her much.
At least it's not me then..:-)
Nope :-) Only 198 more guesses to go (there are only 200 people on
Usenet, right ? ;-)).

<snippety>
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Bonzai Kitten
2008-11-11 14:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by GaryN
If you're going to start apologising for "being a bit sharp" on afp may
I suggest that you should subscribe to alt.fan.crochet or
rec.cooking.scones?
I'll apologise if I bloody well want to and if you don't like it you can
sod off ! :-)
But seriously, the way you're talking,  you'd think no-one was ever nice
to anybody on this group. I've always found the screaming rows to be the
exception rather than the rule, which is one reason why the one afp
regular in my killfile stays in there - he brings out the screaming
harridan in me, and I don't like her much.
I can't remember AFP ever being a real warzone. Aside from the
occasional rocket launched at the ever present Mr Conrad, of course.
Carol Hague
2008-11-11 15:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Bonzai Kitten <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Bonzai Kitten
I can't remember AFP ever being a real warzone. Aside from the
occasional rocket launched at the ever present Mr Conrad, of course.
Compared to some of the other groups I read, it's all peace and light
and fluffy bunnies hereabouts :-)
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Andrew Nevill
2008-11-11 18:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Compared to some of the other groups I read, it's all peace and light
and fluffy bunnies hereabouts :-)
Bunnies?

They must *DIE*!!!!!
(They're not cute like everyone supposes....)
--
Andrew Nevill B.F. D.W. FdV. Reply address: ***@ntlworld.com
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-11 22:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Nevill
Post by Carol Hague
Compared to some of the other groups I read, it's all peace and light
and fluffy bunnies hereabouts :-)
Bunnies?
They must *DIE*!!!!!
(They're not cute like everyone supposes....)
With a good gravy, they're not half bad.

Regards,
--
*Art
Elliott Grasett
2008-11-11 23:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Andrew Nevill
Post by Carol Hague
Compared to some of the other groups I read, it's all peace and light
and fluffy bunnies hereabouts :-)
Bunnies?
They must *DIE*!!!!!
(They're not cute like everyone supposes....)
With a good gravy, they're not half bad.
Regards,
Forget gravy! open a bottle of Moulin-a-Vent!
--
Cheers,
Elliott
Bri Tze
2008-11-12 11:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Andrew Nevill
Post by Carol Hague
Compared to some of the other groups I read, it's all peace and light
and fluffy bunnies hereabouts :-)
Bunnies?
They must *DIE*!!!!!
(They're not cute like everyone supposes....)
With a good gravy, they're not half bad.
Regards,
Forget gravy! open a bottle of Moulin-a-Vent!
--
Cheers,
        Elliott
Then throw the rabbit away! Although memory tells me I used to like
rabbit pie.

Bri Tze
GaryN
2008-11-12 12:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bri Tze
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Andrew Nevill
Post by Carol Hague
Compared to some of the other groups I read, it's all peace and
light and fluffy bunnies hereabouts :-)
Bunnies?
They must *DIE*!!!!!
(They're not cute like everyone supposes....)
With a good gravy, they're not half bad.
Regards,
Forget gravy! open a bottle of Moulin-a-Vent!
--
Cheers,
        Elliott
Then throw the rabbit away! Although memory tells me I used to like
rabbit pie.
Bri Tze
Rabbit pie is great but you have to blanche the rabbit overnight in salt
water because otherwise they taste foul.

And teeth meeting on all the little bits of lead, which seem to be a
necessary ingredient, will complain..:-)

Apparently we're having Pheasant for Christmas dinner this year since
the OD lives in the middle of a wood where the local shoot give her a
couple of brace as an apology for surprising the ponies with lots of
loud bangs[1].

Who's got to pluck and draw them?

Go on - guess....

gary

[1]Actually they are so used to the sound that they don't notice, but if
the RAF would like to donate a bottle (or several) of wine as an apology
for flying Eurofighters and bloody Apache gunship choppers[2] low over
the woods and panicking the ponies it wouldn't go amiss.

[2]These are the worst - treetop level, really loud and the downdraft is
quite powerful. Scares the hell out of all the animals.
--
Ain't too young to admit it,
And I'm not too old to lie
I'm just another empty head.

AC/DC - "Ride On"
Lizzy Taylor
2008-11-12 14:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by GaryN
Rabbit pie is great but you have to blanche the rabbit overnight in salt
water because otherwise they taste foul.
And teeth meeting on all the little bits of lead, which seem to be a
necessary ingredient, will complain..:-)
I remember a friend at university remarking "Rabbit is OK, but I don't
like the pips" !!

Lizzy
Elliott Grasett
2008-11-12 17:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lizzy Taylor
Post by GaryN
Rabbit pie is great but you have to blanche the rabbit overnight in
salt water because otherwise they taste foul.
And teeth meeting on all the little bits of lead, which seem to be a
necessary ingredient, will complain..:-)
I remember a friend at university remarking "Rabbit is OK, but I don't
like the pips" !!
Lizzy
Shoot only those rabbits that are traversing your path -- not the ones
that are running directly away from you. Swing through the rabbit, in
the direction from which it came. As the muzzle of your shotgun passes
the rabbit's nose, squeeze the trigger. This pretty well guarantees a
head shot. Clean, bleed out, and cool your rabbit. Unless you have a
peculiar affection for Cervel de Lapin, Your rabbit meat will be free
of shot.
--
Cheers,
Elliott
Arthur Hagen
2008-11-12 17:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elliott Grasett
Post by Lizzy Taylor
I remember a friend at university remarking "Rabbit is OK, but I
don't like the pips" !!
Shoot only those rabbits that are traversing your path -- not the ones
that are running directly away from you. Swing through the rabbit, in
the direction from which it came. As the muzzle of your shotgun passes
the rabbit's nose, squeeze the trigger. This pretty well guarantees a
head shot. Clean, bleed out, and cool your rabbit. Unless you have a
peculiar affection for Cervel de Lapin, Your rabbit meat will be free
of shot.
Of course, some avoid the problem by using traps instead of guns.
And very few children have killed their parents or schoolmates with rabbit
traps.

Regards,
--
*Art
Lesley Weston
2008-11-12 17:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Andrew Nevill
Post by Carol Hague
Compared to some of the other groups I read, it's all peace and light
and fluffy bunnies hereabouts :-)
Bunnies?
They must *DIE*!!!!!
(They're not cute like everyone supposes....)
With a good gravy, they're not half bad.
Too many bones. They seem to have more and smaller bones than other food
animals, even those the same size.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Lesley Weston
2008-11-10 18:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Carol Hague
Post by Lesley Weston
You bet! I've never been big on the <damsel languishing while she waits
to be rescued by the hero> bit. Maybe that's why I can't get truly
immersed in Fantasy unless it's a spoof.
There are a fair few fantasy novels with damsels that wouldn't know how
to languish if they tried (and would probably sock you one f you called
them damsels too). Most of Barbara Hambly and Tanya Huff's female
characters for a start, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion and Ru Emerson's
Ylia of Nedao, just off the top of my head.
If you don't like fantasy, that's fair enough, but please don't tar the
whole genre with the same brush because *some* fantasy writers turn
women into shrinking violets.
It was an idle remark, not a judgment. Sorry if it upset you.
It didn't upset me - I just thought it was a rather sweeping judgement
based on insufficient evidence and I wanted to balance the scales a bit
- I apologise if I sounded a bit sharp about it.
No need for apologies; it was rather sweeping, probably because I don't
read most Fantasy.

Where did all this sweetness and light come from? You'd think this
wasn't afp any more.
--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Carol Hague
2008-11-10 20:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Carol Hague
It didn't upset me - I just thought it was a rather sweeping judgement
based on insufficient evidence and I wanted to balance the scales a bit
- I apologise if I sounded a bit sharp about it.
No need for apologies; it was rather sweeping, probably because I don't
read most Fantasy.
As Mr Holmes wisely said, it is a capital mistake to theorise without
data :-)
Post by Lesley Weston
Where did all this sweetness and light come from? You'd think this
wasn't afp any more.
That's two of you who seem to think afp is a hotbed of vicious
infighting or something. Are we reading the same group?
--
Carol
"This might as well say "bing tiddle tiddle bong".
It's complete gibberish," - Rodney McKay, Stargate: Atlantis
Charles A Lieberman
2008-11-07 15:02:18 UTC
Permalink
11/1/2008 12:57:27 PM Lesley Weston
Post by Lesley Weston
Post by Falooda
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
Because he was insane. Occam's Razor meant nothing to him.
That's not circular?
--
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "The explanation is extremely simple.
Brooklyn, New York, USA | It doesn't happen."
| --Nick Spalding
http://calieber.livejournal.com ***@gmail.com
Nisaba Merrieweather
2008-11-03 07:41:32 UTC
Permalink
G'dday.
Post by Falooda
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms states his reason behind his
crimes such as the poisoning of Vetinari and showing Nobby to be the
Earl of Ankh . He said he did it because he did not approve of Carrot
and Angua's relationship.
Why did Dragon have to make such a complicated plan which was
difficult to carry out, involved many other people and led to several
deaths when the simplest solution to his problem would have been to
kill Angua?
It would certainly have been easier and more straightforward than
poisoning the Patrician.
Yes.

But less fun.

Perhaps, oh I don't know, perhaps that's the answer to your qwertion?
--
Nisaba Merrieweather
... Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the
worst. (Lin Yutang)
ICQ: 361 565 370
guerillaG-***@yahoogroups.com
http://nisaba.etsy.com
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/nisaba000
http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=1235918638
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