How do you pronounce Ankh-Morpork?

[Harry Flashman]

I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant". The
cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of Ankh-Morpork. There
are two schools of thought: those who think it should be prounced "Unk". And
then there is the rest of us who think it should pronounce "Ank".

Two of the actors are history students and they say that Egyptian symbol
"ankh" is pronounce "unk". My dictionaries say that the word is
pronounced"ank". Unfortunately I do not have the Oxford Dictionary so I
cannot be sure if they list the Standard British English pronuciation or
just the Australian pronuciation.

Can anyone help me?

Harry

[Richard Eney]

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant". The
cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of Ankh-Morpork. There
are two schools of thought: those who think it should be prounced "Unk". And
then there is the rest of us who think it should pronounce "Ank".
Two of the actors are history students and they say that Egyptian symbol
"ankh" is pronounce "unk". My dictionaries say that the word is
pronounced"ank". Unfortunately I do not have the Oxford Dictionary so I
cannot be sure if they list the Standard British English pronuciation or
just the Australian pronuciation.
Can anyone help me?

Um. One difficulty is that my pronunciation of "unk" is almost certainly
different from yours. My pronunciation of "ankh" is probably close to
your pronunciation of "onk". However, I have the impression that in the
name of Ankh-Morpork, the word "Ankh" is pronounced with a long-A vowel,
the one that is used in "hay", "May", "play", "maim", etc.

=Tamar

[Harry Flashman]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant". The
cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of Ankh-Morpork. There
are two schools of thought: those who think it should be prounced "Unk". And
then there is the rest of us who think it should pronounce "Ank".
Two of the actors are history students and they say that Egyptian symbol
"ankh" is pronounce "unk". My dictionaries say that the word is
pronounced"ank". Unfortunately I do not have the Oxford Dictionary so I
cannot be sure if they list the Standard British English pronuciation or
just the Australian pronuciation.
Can anyone help me?

Um. One difficulty is that my pronunciation of "unk" is almost certainly
different from yours. My pronunciation of "ankh" is probably close to
your pronunciation of "onk".

I hear what you are saying (I am guessing that you are American or
Canadian?). Perhaps I should make my self clearer.

Should "Ankh" rhyme with "bank" or "monk"?

Post by Richard Eney
However, I have the impression that in the
name of Ankh-Morpork, the word "Ankh" is pronounced with a long-A vowel,
the one that is used in "hay", "May", "play", "maim", etc.
=Tamar

[Richard Eney]

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant".
The cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of
Ankh-Morpork.

<snip>

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney
Um. One difficulty is that my pronunciation of "unk" is almost certainly
different from yours. My pronunciation of "ankh" is probably close to
your pronunciation of "onk".

I hear what you are saying (I am guessing that you are American or
Canadian?). Perhaps I should make my self clearer.

American, but northeast coast, which is apparently a lot like a posh UK
accent, yet not identical.

Post by Harry Flashman
Should "Ankh" rhyme with "bank" or "monk"?

Post by Richard Eney
However, I have the impression that in the name of
Ankh-Morpork, the word "Ankh" is pronounced with a long-A vowel,
the one that is used in "hay", "May", "play", "maim", etc.

I think I've heard it pronounced like "bank". I'm no authority on it
though.

=Tamar

[rich hammett]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant".
The cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of
Ankh-Morpork.

<snip>

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney
Um. One difficulty is that my pronunciation of "unk" is almost certainly
different from yours. My pronunciation of "ankh" is probably close to
your pronunciation of "onk".

I hear what you are saying (I am guessing that you are American or
Canadian?). Perhaps I should make my self clearer.

American, but northeast coast, which is apparently a lot like a posh UK
accent, yet not identical.

Post by Harry Flashman
Should "Ankh" rhyme with "bank" or "monk"?

Post by Richard Eney
However, I have the impression that in the name of
Ankh-Morpork, the word "Ankh" is pronounced with a long-A vowel,
the one that is used in "hay", "May", "play", "maim", etc.

I think I've heard it pronounced like "bank". I'm no authority on it
though.

"ankh", as in the Egyptian cross thingy, doesn't come close
to rhyming with "bank" or "monk" in my dialect, or any that
I know of. The 'a' in "father" is closer--as far as I know,
it's just a standard European "a".

Of course, as much as we americans are mocked for our
butchery and lack of knowledge of other languages, NOBODY
butchers simple European pronunciation in random and
unpredictable ways as bad as the English. Perhaps there is
some dialect deep somewhere in the West Midlands which
accidentally gets some European pronunciation correct, but
I doubt it.

rich

[Harry Flashman]

Post by rich hammett

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant".
The cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of
Ankh-Morpork.

<snip>

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney
Um. One difficulty is that my pronunciation of "unk" is almost certainly
different from yours. My pronunciation of "ankh" is probably close to
your pronunciation of "onk".

I hear what you are saying (I am guessing that you are American or
Canadian?). Perhaps I should make my self clearer.

American, but northeast coast, which is apparently a lot like a posh UK
accent, yet not identical.

Post by Harry Flashman
Should "Ankh" rhyme with "bank" or "monk"?

Post by Richard Eney
However, I have the impression that in the name of
Ankh-Morpork, the word "Ankh" is pronounced with a long-A vowel,
the one that is used in "hay", "May", "play", "maim", etc.

I think I've heard it pronounced like "bank". I'm no authority on it
though.

"ankh", as in the Egyptian cross thingy, doesn't come close
to rhyming with "bank" or "monk" in my dialect, or any that
I know of. The 'a' in "father" is closer--as far as I know,
it's just a standard European "a".

<snip>

I always thought "ankh" was pronounced as you describe with a "ah" sound as
in father too (my "monk" comparison was not very well chosen). But then I
looked in a couple of dictionares: the "Collins English Dictionary" and the
"Australian Oxford English Dictionary" and they both rhyme the word with
"bank". I haven't got the English version of the Oxford Dictionary so I
can't sure if the "ankh" as in "bank" is just an Australianism.

Harry

[rich hammett]

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by rich hammett

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth

Elephant".

Post by rich hammett

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman
The cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of
Ankh-Morpork.

<snip>

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney
Um. One difficulty is that my pronunciation of "unk" is almost

certainly

Post by rich hammett

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Richard Eney
different from yours. My pronunciation of "ankh" is probably close to
your pronunciation of "onk".

I hear what you are saying (I am guessing that you are American or
Canadian?). Perhaps I should make my self clearer.

American, but northeast coast, which is apparently a lot like a posh UK
accent, yet not identical.

Post by Harry Flashman
Should "Ankh" rhyme with "bank" or "monk"?

Post by Richard Eney
However, I have the impression that in the name of
Ankh-Morpork, the word "Ankh" is pronounced with a long-A vowel,
the one that is used in "hay", "May", "play", "maim", etc.

I think I've heard it pronounced like "bank". I'm no authority on it
though.

"ankh", as in the Egyptian cross thingy, doesn't come close
to rhyming with "bank" or "monk" in my dialect, or any that
I know of. The 'a' in "father" is closer--as far as I know,
it's just a standard European "a".

<snip>
I always thought "ankh" was pronounced as you describe with a "ah" sound as
in father too (my "monk" comparison was not very well chosen). But then I
looked in a couple of dictionares: the "Collins English Dictionary" and the
"Australian Oxford English Dictionary" and they both rhyme the word with
"bank". I haven't got the English version of the Oxford Dictionary so I
can't sure if the "ankh" as in "bank" is just an Australianism.

Actually, as you repeat that, I can recall hearing it that way. I
just tend to use those standard European (read:"Spanish") vowels,
unless there's some nice, consistent reason to pronounce it
differently in American.

rich

[Thomas Zahr]

Post by rich hammett
I
just tend to use those standard European (read:"Spanish")
vowels,

Erm, what *are* European vowels? I've never come across any, I think?

[Orjan Westin]

Post by Thomas Zahr

Post by rich hammett
I
just tend to use those standard European (read:"Spanish")
vowels,

Erm, what *are* European vowels?

The ones with random squiggles over or across.

Örjan

[Graycat]

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:53:38 +0100, "Orjan Westin"

Post by Orjan Westin

Post by Thomas Zahr

Post by rich hammett
I
just tend to use those standard European (read:"Spanish")
vowels,

Erm, what *are* European vowels?

The ones with random squiggles over or across.

Like ñ? :op

[PleegWat]

Post by Graycat
On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:53:38 +0100, "Orjan Westin"

Post by Orjan Westin

Post by Thomas Zahr

Post by rich hammett
I
just tend to use those standard European (read:"Spanish")
vowels,

Erm, what *are* European vowels?

The ones with random squiggles over or across.

Like ñ? :op

except for n isn't a vowel. áäàâéëèê etc

[Graycat]

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 15:54:34 +0200, PleegWat

Post by PleegWat

Post by Graycat
On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:53:38 +0100, "Orjan Westin"

Post by Orjan Westin

Post by Thomas Zahr

Post by rich hammett
I
just tend to use those standard European (read:"Spanish")
vowels,

Erm, what *are* European vowels?

The ones with random squiggles over or across.

Like ñ? :op

except for n isn't a vowel. áäàâéëèê etc

Um...yes. I did actually know that you know, having been
through elementary school and all.... :o)

[Darin Johnson]

Post by Thomas Zahr
Erm, what *are* European vowels? I've never come across any, I think?

I suspect it means the five vowels that are common to most European
languages (especially Romance languages). No long/short vowels or
dipthongs. Think Classical Latin, Esperanto, Japanese, etc.

See http://www.cix.co.uk/~morven/lang/vowels.html for an interesting
discussion of vowel patterns. (a lot of which is gibberish to me since
I don't know the IPA)

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Darin Johnson
See http://www.cix.co.uk/~morven/lang/vowels.html for an interesting
discussion of vowel patterns. (a lot of which is gibberish to me since
I don't know the IPA)

Australian English:
http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/units/ling210-901/phonetics/vowelgraphs/AusE_Monophthongs.html
In my dialect, "air" is a diphthong, but apart from that it's
reasonably accurate.

New Zealand:
http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/units/ling210-901/phonetics/vowelgraphs/NZE_Monophthongs.html

English RP:
http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/units/ling210-901/phonetics/vowelgraphs/RPE_Monophthongs.html

Two versions of American English:
http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/units/ling210-901/phonetics/vowelgraphs/USE_Monophthongs.html

Adrian.

[Gaz]

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant". The
cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of Ankh-Morpork. There
are two schools of thought: those who think it should be prounced "Unk". And
then there is the rest of us who think it should pronounce "Ank".
Two of the actors are history students and they say that Egyptian symbol
"ankh" is pronounce "unk". My dictionaries say that the word is
pronounced"ank". Unfortunately I do not have the Oxford Dictionary so I
cannot be sure if they list the Standard British English pronuciation or
just the Australian pronuciation.
Can anyone help me?
Harry

Having been to one of Terry's *Bedtime story* readings at the con, I would
defer to the man himself.
He seems to favour Arnk. And who am I to argue? Who *am* I? Um...

Gaz
The Hunter

[Harry Flashman]

Post by Gaz

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant". The
cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of Ankh-Morpork. There
are two schools of thought: those who think it should be prounced "Unk". And
then there is the rest of us who think it should pronounce "Ank".
Two of the actors are history students and they say that Egyptian symbol
"ankh" is pronounce "unk". My dictionaries say that the word is
pronounced"ank". Unfortunately I do not have the Oxford Dictionary so I
cannot be sure if they list the Standard British English pronuciation or
just the Australian pronuciation.
Can anyone help me?
Harry

Having been to one of Terry's *Bedtime story* readings at the con, I would
defer to the man himself.
He seems to favour Arnk. And who am I to argue? Who *am* I? Um...
Gaz
The Hunter

Well if that is how Terry Pratchett pronounces it then that is good enough
for me. We have the Stephen Briggs "Fifth Elephant" for stage adaptation. It
has a pronunciation guide at the front which says the "Ankh" should ryhme
with "bank". Briggs should have asked Pratchett how to pronounce the name of
the town before publishing a pronunciation guide.
Harry

[Eric Jarvis]

Post by Harry Flashman
Well if that is how Terry Pratchett pronounces it then that is good enough
for me. We have the Stephen Briggs "Fifth Elephant" for stage adaptation. It
has a pronunciation guide at the front which says the "Ankh" should ryhme
with "bank". Briggs should have asked Pratchett how to pronounce the name of
the town before publishing a pronunciation guide.

I suspect he actually did it by relying on having heard Pterry say it
quite often.

I'm sure that somewhere on the web there will be a sound file with Pterry
mentioning it in a radio interview.

[Jean]

Post by Harry Flashman
We have the Stephen Briggs "Fifth Elephant" for stage adaptation. It
has a pronunciation guide at the front which says the "Ankh" should ryhme
with "bank". Briggs should have asked Pratchett how to pronounce the name of
the town before publishing a pronunciation guide.

And I'm sure he undoubtedly did. Actually, he probably didn't need to;
I've heard Terry say "Ankh-Morpork" dozens of times and he always made
it ryhme with "bank." That being said, I've never once heard anybody
*else* pronounce it that way. Even when talking *to* him, everyone
I've ever heard (including me, though I tried hard not to) pronounces
it to ryhme with "aunt" (the English and East Coast of Merka version,
not the one that is a synonym for an insect). I've never heard Stephen
Briggs reading the Discworld books, but both Nigel Planer and Tony
Robinson ryhme "Ankh" with "aunt," too. Obviously, Terry's way is
correct, I'm just saying it's less common. So you're sure to irritate
someone either way. Isn't that nice?

Jean

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Jean

Post by Harry Flashman
We have the Stephen Briggs "Fifth Elephant" for stage adaptation. It
has a pronunciation guide at the front which says the "Ankh" should ryhme
with "bank". Briggs should have asked Pratchett how to pronounce the name of
the town before publishing a pronunciation guide.

And I'm sure he undoubtedly did. Actually, he probably didn't need to;
I've heard Terry say "Ankh-Morpork" dozens of times and he always made
it ryhme with "bank."

I've heard Terry say it, and it sounded to me just like I say it, which
is the first part of "anchor".

[Sarah Warren]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Jean

Post by Harry Flashman
We have the Stephen Briggs "Fifth Elephant" for stage adaptation. It
has a pronunciation guide at the front which says the "Ankh" should ryhme
with "bank". Briggs should have asked Pratchett how to pronounce the name of
the town before publishing a pronunciation guide.

And I'm sure he undoubtedly did. Actually, he probably didn't need to;
I've heard Terry say "Ankh-Morpork" dozens of times and he always made
it ryhme with "bank."

I've heard Terry say it, and it sounded to me just like I say it, which
is the first part of "anchor".

Yes, me too. The way you describe pT saying it, to rhyme with Bank,
is what I have always said.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 01/10/2004

[Lady Kayla]

Post by Jean

Post by Harry Flashman
We have the Stephen Briggs "Fifth Elephant" for stage adaptation. It
has a pronunciation guide at the front which says the "Ankh" should ryhme
with "bank". Briggs should have asked Pratchett how to pronounce the name of
the town before publishing a pronunciation guide.

And I'm sure he undoubtedly did. Actually, he probably didn't need to;
I've heard Terry say "Ankh-Morpork" dozens of times and he always made
it ryhme with "bank." That being said, I've never once heard anybody
*else* pronounce it that way.

[...]

I pronounce it to rhyme with bank, if I'm talking about Ankh-Morpork.
If, OTOH, I am talking about Egyptian symbols, then I'd pronounce it
somewhere between "arnk" and "onk".

[J.G.Harston]

Post by Harry Flashman
with "bank". Briggs should have asked Pratchett how to pronounce the name of
the town before publishing a pronunciation guide.

I'm fairly sure it;s a city, but, like Sheffield, the locals probably
talk about "town" as meaning the city centre.

In fact, in Sheffield, if you travel into town from anywhere
futher than about a quarter of a mile from the Town Hall
you talk about going in to Sheffield.

[Danny]

Post by Harry Flashman
I am currently acting in a theatre production of "the Fifth Elephant". The
cast cannot agree on how to pronouce the "ankh" part of Ankh-Morpork. There
are two schools of thought: those who think it should be prounced "Unk". And
then there is the rest of us who think it should pronounce "Ank".
Two of the actors are history students and they say that Egyptian symbol
"ankh" is pronounce "unk". My dictionaries say that the word is
pronounced"ank". Unfortunately I do not have the Oxford Dictionary so I
cannot be sure if they list the Standard British English pronuciation or
just the Australian pronuciation.
Can anyone help me?

In the many, many productions of Discworld plays I've done, we reached
one conclusion - Ankh-Morpork can be pronounced however you like, the
audience won't care.

However, for *other* names, it's important to get them consistent
(as long as *everyone* says them the same, it won't really matter to
anyone except pedantic fans if you get them wrong :p)

- Vetinari
- Angua
- Detritus
- Genua
- Lancre
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]
- Great A'Tuin

and so on...

Seeya. Danny.

--
E-Mail: Danny (at) grovers (dash) sa (dot) com

[Sachin]

Danny wrote:
[Scissors]
This is how I woould pronounce them (with the pronunciation out of other
words)...

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vey (Har[vey]) Tea Na Ri ([ri]ch)

Post by Danny
- Angua

Ang ([Ang]le) gua ([gua]no)

Post by Danny
- Detritus

Day Tree Tus ([Tus]k)

Post by Danny
- Genua

J (like the letter) Noah

Post by Danny
- Lancre

Lanker

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

OuberVald

Post by Danny
- Great A'Tuin

A ([a]nother) Twin

Post by Danny
and so on...
Seeya. Danny.
--
E-Mail: Danny (at) grovers (dash) sa (dot) com

Maybe its not very clear though....

[X Kyle M Thompson]

Post by Sachin
[Scissors]
This is how I woould pronounce them (with the pronunciation out of other
words)...

I disagree with all of them...

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vey (Har[vey]) Tea Na Ri ([ri]ch)

Vet-E-Nari

this is the one that causes me the most trouble. I don't want it to be
too much like veterinary, but not to laboured either.

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Angua

Ang ([Ang]le) gua ([gua]no)

Ann-goo-ah

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Detritus

Day Tree Tus ([Tus]k)

Det-Ri-Tus

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Genua

J (like the letter) Noah

Gen-ooh-ah

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Lancre

Lanker

"lanker" seems to have too much of a '-er' sound on the end, I say it
more with a '-re' sound IYSWIM

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

OuberVald

I know in the accent of the people from Uberwald that'd be right, but in
the fine tradition of mis-pronouncing foreign words I say more:

uber-wold

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Great A'Tuin

A ([a]nother) Twin

A Too-in

[Danny]

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin
[Scissors]
This is how I woould pronounce them (with the pronunciation out of other
words)...

I disagree with all of them...

And even I probably do them differently again...

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vey (Har[vey]) Tea Na Ri ([ri]ch)

Vet-E-Nari

Vet-in-AH-ree.

(one pronunciation that irks me is Vet-in-air-ee, which sounds too close
to Vetinarian... There's nothing to say it isn't valid [except Mr Briggs] but
it still sounds horrid to me)

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
this is the one that causes me the most trouble. I don't want it to be
too much like veterinary, but not to laboured either.

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Angua

Ang ([Ang]le) gua ([gua]no)

Ann-goo-ah

ANN-gyoo-ah

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Detritus

Day Tree Tus ([Tus]k)

Det-Ri-Tus

Deh-TRY-tuhss

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Genua

J (like the letter) Noah

Gen-ooh-ah

Jen-yoo-ah

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Lancre

Lanker

"lanker" seems to have too much of a '-er' sound on the end, I say it
more with a '-re' sound IYSWIM

Lank-er

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

OuberVald

I know in the accent of the people from Uberwald that'd be right, but in
uber-wold

Oo-ber-vold or Oo-ber-wold

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Great A'Tuin

A ([a]nother) Twin

A Too-in

A'Tyoo-in or A'Too-in

Weird how we are all supposedly speaking the same language (English) and yet we
always read out things differently to ourselves... The letters are the same,
our perceptions aren't ;)

Seeya. Danny.


--
E-Mail: Danny (at) grovers (dash) sa (dot) com

[Sachin]

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:18:18 +0100, X Kyle M Thompson

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin
[Scissors]
This is how I woould pronounce them (with the pronunciation out of
other words)...

I disagree with all of them...

And even I probably do them differently again...

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vey (Har[vey]) Tea Na Ri ([ri]ch)

Vet-E-Nari

Vet-in-AH-ree.
(one pronunciation that irks me is Vet-in-air-ee, which sounds too close
to Vetinarian... There's nothing to say it isn't valid [except Mr
Briggs] but it still sounds horrid to me)

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
this is the one that causes me the most trouble. I don't want it to
be too much like veterinary, but not to laboured either.

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Angua

Ang ([Ang]le) gua ([gua]no)

Ann-goo-ah

ANN-gyoo-ah

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Detritus

Day Tree Tus ([Tus]k)

Det-Ri-Tus

Deh-TRY-tuhss

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Genua

J (like the letter) Noah

Gen-ooh-ah

Jen-yoo-ah

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Lancre

Lanker

"lanker" seems to have too much of a '-er' sound on the end, I say
it more with a '-re' sound IYSWIM

Lank-er

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

OuberVald

I know in the accent of the people from Uberwald that'd be right,
but in the fine tradition of mis-pronouncing foreign words I say
uber-wold

Oo-ber-vold or Oo-ber-wold

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Great A'Tuin

A ([a]nother) Twin

A Too-in

A'Tyoo-in or A'Too-in
Weird how we are all supposedly speaking the same language (English)
and yet we always read out things differently to ourselves... The
letters are the same, our perceptions aren't ;)
Seeya. Danny.
--
E-Mail: Danny (at) grovers (dash) sa (dot) com

I agree with the fact that we might all pronounce differently. That's maybe
because of our environment, oral environment I think. My pronunciation is
much influenced by the fact that I live in France but I learned English in
my homeland (Mauritius) where English and French is more like the African
type... Weird but hey that's what makes it more fun... ROTFL

[Richard Eney]

In article <***@4ax.com>,
Danny <***@atgroversdashsadot.com> wrote:
<snip>

Post by Danny
And even I probably do them differently again...

Most of your pronunciations are the way I vaguely recall PTerry
pronouncing them, with the exception of Uberwald.

Post by Danny

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vet-in-AH-ree.

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Angua

ANN-gyoo-ah

That one I'm fairly sure of. Definitely An-gyoo-ah,
but the "An" might be a little more like the "an" in "angry".

Post by Danny

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Detritus

Deh-TRY-tuhss

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Genua

Jen-yoo-ah

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Lancre

Lank-er

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

Oo-ber-vold or Oo-ber-wold

What I recall, which isn't necessarily accurate, is
Oo-ber-wald

Post by Danny

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Great A'Tuin

A ([a]nother) Twin

A Too-in

A'Tyoo-in or A'Too-in

What I remember hearing is
A'Too-in

I remember it because that's how I pronounce it too
and I was glad I got something right. But my memory
might be failing, too.

=Tamar

[Mark Gallagher]

If X Kyle M Thompson (of <***@uni-berlin.de> fame) were a
mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...
<snip: "uberwald", "oubervald"... />

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
I know in the accent of the people from Uberwald that'd be right, but in
uber-wold

Ahh, but is that a British-descent "u" or a... um... funny "u"?

<glares, rather unfairly, at all the group's Americans... />

[Len Oil]

Post by Mark Gallagher
mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
uber-wold

Ahh, but is that a British-descent "u" or a... um... funny "u"?

A local of the region I'd expect to say 'ur-bear-VOLE-d' (near as I can
write it down, but still lacking the subtlety) but your common or garden
born-at-home-stay-at-home Ankh-Morporkian might say 'OO-burr-woll-d',
with the more cosmopolitan, well-travelled or immigrant residents having
more varied versions at hand. This is all in my own mind, of course,
and has virtually no chance of being definitive.

--
Terry Pratchett fans | I ku,
Congregate in this locale - | You ku,
Hi I am Len Oil | We all ku for Haiku

[Graycat]

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 01:23:54 +0100, "Len Oil"

Post by Len Oil

Post by Mark Gallagher
mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
uber-wold

Ahh, but is that a British-descent "u" or a... um... funny "u"?

A local of the region I'd expect to say 'ur-bear-VOLE-d' (near as I can
write it down, but still lacking the subtlety) but your common or garden
born-at-home-stay-at-home Ankh-Morporkian might say 'OO-burr-woll-d',
with the more cosmopolitan, well-travelled or immigrant residents having
more varied versions at hand. This is all in my own mind, of course,
and has virtually no chance of being definitive.

I used to say it Ybervalld, with a rolling r, but under the
influence of afp it's morphed to Oubervauld without the
rolling r.

[Graycat]

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:18:18 +0100, X Kyle M Thompson

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin
[Scissors]
This is how I woould pronounce them (with the pronunciation out of other
words)...

I disagree with all of them...

And I think I've said this before, but I tend to pronounce
them in Swedish...

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vey (Har[vey]) Tea Na Ri ([ri]ch)

Vet-E-Nari

That's pretty close to how I say it too, but with emphasis
moved. Vet-i-nAhri

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Angua

Ang ([Ang]le) gua ([gua]no)

Yup, I say it like that too (if I understand you correctly)

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
Ann-goo-ah

Post by Sachin

Post by Danny
- Detritus

Day Tree Tus ([Tus]k)

Det-Ri-Tus

Went for ages calling him Detrius, and I still do if I'm not
careful.

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
A Too-in

I say that more like A Two-in I think.

[X Kyle M Thompson]

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:18:18 +0100, X Kyle M Thompson

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
A Too-in

I say that more like A Two-in I think.

My Two, Too and To are all the same.


I was thinking earlier, of the word "Rebel", which has a few meanings.

If you are a rebel, you rebel.

For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who
is a rebel is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell" [1].

Are there any other words like this? I am sure that I know of a nother
word like this, but I cannot think of it right now.

kt.

[1]cannot quite describe the beginning satisfactorily there, I know not
of IPA except the beer.

[J.G.Harston]

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
Are there any other words like this? I am sure that I know of a nother

Project.
This proj'ct is pro-jecting.

[X Kyle M Thompson]

Post by J.G.Harston

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
I was thinking earlier, of the word "Rebel", which has a few meanings.
If you are a rebel, you rebel.
For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who is a rebel
is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell"
Are there any other words like this?

Project.
This proj'ct is pro-jecting.

(nods head appreciatively and re-inserts context)

Aye, that's one any more?

kt.

[Dom]

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by J.G.Harston

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
I was thinking earlier, of the word "Rebel", which has a few meanings.
If you are a rebel, you rebel.
For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who is a rebel
is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell"
Are there any other words like this?

Project.
This proj'ct is pro-jecting.

(nods head appreciatively and re-inserts context)
Aye, that's one any more?

Maybe if you polish up on your Polish?

[Cybercat]

Post by Dom
Maybe if you polish up on your Polish?

If light is light, does that mean dark is heavy?

[Torak]

Post by Dom

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by J.G.Harston

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
I was thinking earlier, of the word "Rebel", which has a few meanings.
If you are a rebel, you rebel.
For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who is a rebel
is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell"
Are there any other words like this?

Project.
This proj'ct is pro-jecting.

(nods head appreciatively and re-inserts context)
Aye, that's one any more?

Maybe if you polish up on your Polish?

Or brush up your Shakespeare?

Seriously, though, when I was a kid I used to build model kits, and I
remember wondering why the RAF had whole squadrons of highly-polished
aircraft....

[Dom]

[snip words spelled the same, but pronouced differently]

Post by Torak

Post by Dom
Maybe if you polish up on your Polish?

Or brush up your Shakespeare?
Seriously, though, when I was a kid I used to build model kits, and I
remember wondering why the RAF had whole squadrons of highly-polished
aircraft....

IIRC Concordes were polished between flights to reduce the drag.

That reminds me of the time way back when I was given a 'behind-the-
scenes' tour of a major UK airport (when they didn't worry about
terrorists and sucklike) and we had a look round one of the Concordes.

After we'd look inside and sat in the Pilot's seats, we went round on
a gantry to the front of the plane. It was totally awesome standing
up there with that serious piece of hardware a few inches away.

I couldn't resist touching the nose-spike thing :-)

[Arthur Hagen]

Post by Dom
IIRC Concordes were polished between flights to reduce the drag.

That seems like a silly thing to do, if it was done for that reason,
considering that it would increase the drag. Golf balls aren't smooth, and
fast-flying birds and fast-swimming fish and mammals all have bumps or
ridges to steer the turbulence and reduce drag.
I'd be more willing to believe that polishing the plane reduced the risk of
ice buildup, which is a concern at the height and speed of which the
Concorde travelled.

Post by Dom
After we'd look inside and sat in the Pilot's seats, we went round on
a gantry to the front of the plane. It was totally awesome standing
up there with that serious piece of hardware a few inches away.
I couldn't resist touching the nose-spike thing :-)

Made you feel like Ming, didn't it? :-)

[Dom]

Post by Arthur Hagen

Post by Dom
IIRC Concordes were polished between flights to reduce the drag.

That seems like a silly thing to do, if it was done for that reason,
considering that it would increase the drag. Golf balls aren't smooth, and
fast-flying birds and fast-swimming fish and mammals all have bumps or
ridges to steer the turbulence and reduce drag.

I don't know much about this sort of stuff, but I'm guessing that the
sort of speeds that Concorde travels at has a different set of rules
to those that apply to a golf ball or bird. (But ICBW).

Post by Arthur Hagen
I'd be more willing to believe that polishing the plane reduced the risk of
ice buildup, which is a concern at the height and speed of which the
Concorde travelled.

Ice build-up was never a problem. When flying at around 1,400 MPH
at 55,000 feet the plane heats up by a considerable amount.
The tip of the nose would reach over 100 degrees C whilst in flight.

Post by Arthur Hagen

Post by Dom
I couldn't resist touching the nose-spike thing :-)

Made you feel like Ming, didn't it? :-)

He got a little closer than I would feel comfortable with. ;-)

[Torak]

Post by Dom

Post by Arthur Hagen
I'd be more willing to believe that polishing the plane reduced the risk of
ice buildup, which is a concern at the height and speed of which the
Concorde travelled.

Ice build-up was never a problem. When flying at around 1,400 MPH
at 55,000 feet the plane heats up by a considerable amount.
The tip of the nose would reach over 100 degrees C whilst in flight.

I refer you to the great David Gunson, renowned after-dinner speaker
(who I wish I had a chance to hear more by):

"Next time you're up in a plane, open the window in the cockpit and
stick your arm out, and two things will happen. First, everyone will go
out with you, and second, you'll find thatthe outside air is at minus
fifty degrees. [1]

"Now do the same thing on Concorde. Item one still applies, only they'll
go twice as fast. But the temperature, you'll notice, is minus a
*hundred* degrees. If you can twist your arm around and touch the
outside skin of the aircraft, you'll notice that it's *plus* one hundred.

"Now, you can't have an aircraft at *plus* one hundred in an outside
temperature of *minus* one hundred without something happening, and on a
normal transatlantic flight, Concorde grows in length by one foot. When
you land it, it shrinks. Now, if you were to pull the carpet up in the
aisle you'll see the floor's made up of plates, and you can actually see
them moving. If you can see daylight, you should tell somebody."



[1] - Note that I can't remember the exact figures; he certainly got it
right, I may have got it wrong.

[John Barberio]

Post by Torak
"Now, you can't have an aircraft at *plus* one hundred in an outside
temperature of *minus* one hundred without something happening, and on a
normal transatlantic flight, Concorde grows in length by one foot. When
you land it, it shrinks. Now, if you were to pull the carpet up in the
aisle you'll see the floor's made up of plates, and you can actually see
them moving. If you can see daylight, you should tell somebody."

I recall hearing that in the cockpit of the Concorde is a small gap of
less than an inch between the bulkhead and the instrumentation. In
flight it expands to just the right size to put a hat in. And one
unfortunate pilot did so, and forgot to take it back out before landing.

- J

[Helen Nettleton]

Post by Arthur Hagen

Post by Dom
IIRC Concordes were polished between flights to reduce the drag.

That seems like a silly thing to do, if it was done for that reason,
considering that it would increase the drag. Golf balls aren't smooth, and
fast-flying birds and fast-swimming fish and mammals all have bumps or
ridges to steer the turbulence and reduce drag.
I'd be more willing to believe that polishing the plane reduced the risk of
ice buildup, which is a concern at the height and speed of which the
Concorde travelled.

Sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere. Golf balls have bumps as a
sphere
has a high coefficient of drag, by adding bumps a turbulent boundary
layer
occurs which sticks to the ball for longer reducing the drag. An
aeroplane
has a low coefficient of friction and so a smooth surface is better.

HTH
Helen

[Torak]

Post by Dom
[snip words spelled the same, but pronouced differently]

Post by Torak

Post by Dom
Maybe if you polish up on your Polish?

Or brush up your Shakespeare?
Seriously, though, when I was a kid I used to build model kits, and I
remember wondering why the RAF had whole squadrons of highly-polished
aircraft....

IIRC Concordes were polished between flights to reduce the drag.

Yes - but all these Spitfire models got an extra coat of varnish.

Well, it *said* they were polished squadrons....

Post by Dom
That reminds me of the time way back when I was given a 'behind-the-
scenes' tour of a major UK airport (when they didn't worry about
terrorists and sucklike) and we had a look round one of the Concordes.
After we'd look inside and sat in the Pilot's seats, we went round on
a gantry to the front of the plane. It was totally awesome standing
up there with that serious piece of hardware a few inches away.
I couldn't resist touching the nose-spike thing :-)

My Dad knows one of the first Concorde pilots - I think he was still one
of BA's main pilots when they took them out of commission. I got a tour
of a brand-new Concorde - still with the plastic on the seats - when I
was three or four.

I was in the cockpit, playing with the funny knobs and buttons, and
Mamma said "Are you sure it's safe for him to play with those buttons?"

"Yeah, they're all switched off."

I reached for a big red button, glowing a dull red. [1]

"Even that one?"

Chris went into bullet time, diving for the panel.

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"

It turned out the, if I'd pushed the button, I would have raised the
nose. That would have been a bad thing, since it was about six inches
from the hangar wall at the time.



[1] - OK, maybe it wasn't, but I can't remember *that* much...

[Sarah Warren]

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by J.G.Harston

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
I was thinking earlier, of the word "Rebel", which has a few meanings.
If you are a rebel, you rebel.
For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who is a rebel
is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell"
Are there any other words like this?

Project.
This proj'ct is pro-jecting.

(nods head appreciatively and re-inserts context)
Aye, that's one any more?

Record/record
He is going to re'cord a 'record

I *think* you'll find that most (all?) words of two syllables
which are both verbs and nouns have those stress patterns.

ahh I just found something:

"Usually 2 syllable nouns (90%+) have the stress on the
first syllable; 2 syllable verbs (60%+) have the stress
on the second."
(from http://oak.ucc.nau.edu/tn24/wordstress/wstresstext.html)

This results in those kind of pairs.

Second/second, also...

Oh here we go... you wanted more?

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Initial-stress-derived_noun

"Perhaps 100 verbs in English become nouns or adjectives when the stress is
moved to the first syllable from a later one -- usually, but not always, the
second. Some examples are:

"This conFLICTS with that." "There is a CONflict."
"I reCORDed the results." "They kept a RECord."
"I will perMIT that." "I will grant a PERmit." "

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
If you are a rebel, you rebel.
For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who
is a rebel is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell" [1].

is correct... and there are lots of examples. :-)


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 01/10/2004

[X Kyle M Thompson]

Post by Sarah Warren

Post by X Kyle M Thompson

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
I was thinking earlier, of the word "Rebel", which has a few meanings.
If you are a rebel, you rebel.

If you are a rebel, you rebel.
For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who
is a rebel is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell"

is correct... and there are lots of examples. :-)

Then lets not get into them all, we could be here some time. Nice
website, thanks for that.

kt.

[Sarah Warren]

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
Then lets not get into them all, we could be here some time. Nice
website, thanks for that.

you're welcome, makes a refreshing change to see something
I know something about to comment on, as opposed to my
usual blather ;-)


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 01/10/2004

[Sessifet]

Post by Sarah Warren
Record/record
He is going to re'cord a 'record
I *think* you'll find that most (all?) words of two syllables
which are both verbs and nouns have those stress patterns.
"Usually 2 syllable nouns (90%+) have the stress on the
first syllable; 2 syllable verbs (60%+) have the stress
on the second."
(from http://oak.ucc.nau.edu/tn24/wordstress/wstresstext.html)

And this is because the English language places the stress on the
penultimate syllable (usually of course). There's a whole bunch of
rules and exceptions (naturally) along the lines of "assign stress to
penult if it is heavy, if not, assign stress to the antepenult
etc.etc.".
Of course, when we find out there are no syllables heavy enough to
carry stress, we invent the syllabic or dark 'l' (as in little).

Post by Sarah Warren
This results in those kind of pairs.

Actually, I don't think there's an explanation for it.

Post by Sarah Warren
Second/second, also...

Nope, don't see that one. It may be because I'm Dutch, but to me both
have primary stress on the first syllable. You do mean: give me a
second vs. I'll second that, don't you?

Post by Sarah Warren
Oh here we go... you wanted more?
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Initial-stress-derived_noun
"Perhaps 100 verbs in English become nouns or adjectives when the stress is
moved to the first syllable from a later one -- usually, but not always, the
"This conFLICTS with that." "There is a CONflict."
"I reCORDed the results." "They kept a RECord."
"I will perMIT that." "I will grant a PERmit." "

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
If you are a rebel, you rebel.
For me both meanings of rebel are pronounced differently, the person who
is a rebel is a "rebble" whereas the act of rebelling is to "ri(h)bell"

[1].
is correct... and there are lots of examples. :-)

And that is one reason why English can be so wonderfully confusing for
foreigners :-)

aside --> as part of my work experience I sometimes have to check
essays/termpapers etc. written by Dutch people in English. One
contained the sentence: "these solutions have to be implanted
"bottom-up".
Yes, I know what she meant, and most people probably would, but it
left me with a rather disturbing mental image :-) <-- aside over.

Cheers

Karen

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Sessifet

Post by Sarah Warren
Second/second, also...

Nope, don't see that one. It may be because I'm Dutch, but to me both
have primary stress on the first syllable. You do mean: give me a
second vs. I'll second that, don't you?

Another meaning: "We have been asked to second an officer to another
department". This has the stress on the second syllable.

[Sarah Warren]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Sessifet

Post by Sarah Warren
Second/second, also...

Nope, don't see that one. It may be because I'm Dutch, but to me both
have primary stress on the first syllable. You do mean: give me a
second vs. I'll second that, don't you?

Another meaning: "We have been asked to second an officer to another
department". This has the stress on the second syllable.

That's the one I was going for.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 01/10/2004

[Sessifet]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Sessifet

Post by Sarah Warren
Second/second, also...

Nope, don't see that one. It may be because I'm Dutch, but to me both
have primary stress on the first syllable. You do mean: give me a
second vs. I'll second that, don't you?

Another meaning: "We have been asked to second an officer to another
department". This has the stress on the second syllable.

Ah, thank you. One of the many words we did *not* discuss during teh
phonetics course :-)

Cheers

Karen

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Sessifet
And this is because the English language places the stress on the
penultimate syllable (usually of course).

??? Nonsense. Stress in English is _usually_ on the first syllable.
With many, many exceptions.

Post by Sessifet
Of course, when we find out there are no syllables heavy enough to
carry stress, we invent the syllabic or dark 'l' (as in little).

Syllabic L and dark L are not synonymous, incidentally. Syllabic L is
always dark, but dark L is not always syllabic.

Adrian.

[Sessifet]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
And this is because the English language places the stress on the
penultimate syllable (usually of course).

??? Nonsense. Stress in English is _usually_ on the first syllable.
With many, many exceptions.

Yes, that's what I said too, in class. But apparently you're not
supposed to call it the first syllable, when you're talking about
general rules. The whole penult/antepenult thing works (usually) when
you're dealing with words of two syllables.
I oversimplified to the point of criminality (at least in my phonetics
prof's point of view), because you also have to take into account the
weight of the syllable, whether it's a loanword from a differently
stressed language etc etc.

So, in short, I yanked a remembered sentence out of it's proper
context. Bad idea...Apologies.
If you want I can go into more detail to explain where I came from
with this? You'll have to give me a day or two to properly prepare
though...

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
Of course, when we find out there are no syllables heavy enough to
carry stress, we invent the syllabic or dark 'l' (as in little).

Syllabic L and dark L are not synonymous, incidentally. Syllabic L is
always dark, but dark L is not always syllabic.

Oh, bugger. You are absolutely right. I got my terms mixed up. Just
checked it, should've done that first. Apologies again...In the future
I'll check first, post later!

*slinks off and hides under big rock, thoroughly ashamed of herself*

Karen

[Sarah Warren]

Post by Sessifet

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
And this is because the English language places the stress on the
penultimate syllable (usually of course).

??? Nonsense. Stress in English is _usually_ on the first syllable.
With many, many exceptions.

Yes, that's what I said too, in class. But apparently you're not
supposed to call it the first syllable, when you're talking about
general rules. The whole penult/antepenult thing works (usually) when
you're dealing with words of two syllables.

Same in Croatian, the stress is usually on the pre-penultimate syllable
IIRC (it's been a while, and is antepenultimate the proper word for
that?), which in practice usually means the first syllable. I think. I am
confused. But yes, when learning Croatian the stress was counted from
the end of the word not the beginning because it's a more consistent
rule or something.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 01/10/2004

[Sessifet]

Post by Sarah Warren

Post by Sessifet

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
And this is because the English language places the stress on the
penultimate syllable (usually of course).

??? Nonsense. Stress in English is _usually_ on the first syllable.
With many, many exceptions.

Yes, that's what I said too, in class. But apparently you're not
supposed to call it the first syllable, when you're talking about
general rules. The whole penult/antepenult thing works (usually) when
you're dealing with words of two syllables.

Same in Croatian, the stress is usually on the pre-penultimate syllable
IIRC (it's been a while, and is antepenultimate the proper word for
that?), which in practice usually means the first syllable. I think. I am
confused. But yes, when learning Croatian the stress was counted from
the end of the word not the beginning because it's a more consistent
rule or something.

Yup, antepenult. The syllable before the penult, which is before in
the last syllable. And do we call the last syllable the ultimate
syllable to make it easier? No, we just call that one the last.

Is anyone surprised that it took me 5 years to even pass the bloody
course?! :-)

Cheers

Karen

[Sarah Warren]

Post by Sessifet
Is anyone surprised that it took me 5 years to even pass the bloody
course?! :-)

I'm just impressed you passed, from the sounds of it. Sounds evil!


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 01/10/2004

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Sessifet
Yes, that's what I said too, in class. But apparently you're not
supposed to call it the first syllable, when you're talking about

You call it the initial syllable, e.g. "Finnish has fixed word-initial
stress" -- from the second Google hit for "initial syllable".

Post by Sessifet
general rules. The whole penult/antepenult thing works (usually) when
you're dealing with words of two syllables.

Yeah. And the "Page One is seventy pages from the back of the book"
thing works (usually) when you're dealing with books of just over
seventy pages.

Anyway, what's _your_ excuse for studying phonetics? Then I'll tell
you mine.

Adrian.

[Sarah Warren]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
general rules. The whole penult/antepenult thing works (usually) when
you're dealing with words of two syllables.

Yeah. And the "Page One is seventy pages from the back of the book"
thing works (usually) when you're dealing with books of just over
seventy pages.

But the point is that the penultimate (or antepenultimate) rule is a better
rule for some languages. I'm not in a position to know for English, but
certainly for Croatian counting from the end of the word is more
accurate. And there are few if any words with 70 syllables, so... it's
not exactly a chore.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 01/10/2004

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Sarah Warren
But the point is that the penultimate (or antepenultimate) rule is a better
rule for some languages.

Of course. Welsh, for example, is usually stressed on the penultimate.
But we were originally talking about English.

Adrian.

[Sessifet]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
Yes, that's what I said too, in class. But apparently you're not
supposed to call it the first syllable, when you're talking about

You call it the initial syllable, e.g. "Finnish has fixed word-initial
stress" -- from the second Google hit for "initial syllable".

You're absolutely right.

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
general rules. The whole penult/antepenult thing works (usually) when
you're dealing with words of two syllables.

Yeah. And the "Page One is seventy pages from the back of the book"
thing works (usually) when you're dealing with books of just over
seventy pages.

:-) Okay, point taken.
I *have* to stop trying to be too brief in explanations/statements.
The whole thing works basically no matter how many syllables a word
has. Except of course the exceptions such as loanwords and the *we
have no idea why they're diferent, but they are*-words and many many
more.

Please bear in mind that I'm explaining what I learnt, which is not
much when you look at the entire field. I'm not a linguist and never
will be (nor do I want to...)

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Anyway, what's _your_ excuse for studying phonetics? Then I'll tell
you mine.

I fell madly in love with my phonetics/phonology teacher and flunked
the course 4 times on purpose just so's I could have the pleasure of
listening to him again... ;->

No seriously, it was a required course, called Phonetics 2 (though
since the introduction of BaMa it's part of Structures and Sounds of
English 2). I'd always found it rather interesting (and a whole lot
more fun than *eep* syntax), but for some reason I could never pass
the course. The last time I finally twigged on and did very well in
exams.
I'm an amateur, and what I initially posted was vaguely remembered and
I didn't check until later (bad move, I know).

Do I have the pleasure of adressing a *real* phonologist/phonetician?
Should I quietly retreat and then leg it away over the hills over
there or admit defeat and hope you take prisoners?

Cheers

Karen

PS: the course book was: English Phonology by Heinz J. Giegerich

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Sessifet
I *have* to stop trying to be too brief in explanations/statements.
The whole thing works basically no matter how many syllables a word
has. Except of course the exceptions such as loanwords and the *we
have no idea why they're diferent, but they are*-words and many many
more.

I don't think someone who can speak English should need to look up a
book to find out how English words are usually stressed ... however
you should avoid picking words with affixes in them, and you should
realise that nouns are the most consistent.

Elephant. Hippopotamus. Octopus. Kangaroo.
Universe. Galaxy. Nebula. Meteor.
Television. Radio. Newspaper. Media.
Orchestra. Violin. Saxophone. Piano.

With the exception of the last, none of the above nouns are stressed
on the penultimate.

Post by Sessifet
Do I have the pleasure of adressing a *real* phonologist/phonetician?
Should I quietly retreat and then leg it away over the hills over
there or admit defeat and hope you take prisoners?

No - I *have* studied a bit of phonetics, but not as my major. My
major was computer science. The requirements for a BSc in compsci are
basically a certain amount of general first year science topics, plus
a certain amount of computing topics, plus a certain amount of
anything you like. For me, the "anything you like" consisted of topics
such as "The Craft and Culture of Creative Writing", "Advanced
Professional English" (since renamed "Creative Nonfiction"),
"Language, Culture and Communication", and - most pertinently here -
"Words and Sounds".

However, the vast bulk of the phonetics and phonology that I know I
learned not through university at all, but as a hobby. I've done a
certain amount of tinkering in the whole endeavour of conlanging -
the art of inventing your own language - and it's through my
involvement in that hobby that my interest in phonetics developed
(although it has also become an interest in its own right). I took the
university topic in the hope of filling in some gaps.

Adrian.

[Sessifet]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
I don't think someone who can speak English should need to look up a
book to find out how English words are usually stressed ...

I completely agree, nevertheless, that's what I did for ten weeks last
year. Knowing how words are stressed is one thing. Knowing why is
something comepletely different. (and of course completely useless in
the normal day to day sense)

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
however you should avoid picking words with affixes in them, and you should
realise that nouns are the most consistent.
Elephant. Hippopotamus. Octopus. Kangaroo.
Universe. Galaxy. Nebula. Meteor.
Television. Radio. Newspaper. Media.
Orchestra. Violin. Saxophone. Piano.
With the exception of the last, none of the above nouns are stressed
on the penultimate.

I can't quite make out whether that was supposed to disprove what I
said or not.
Not that I'd mind if I'm wrong. Our prof did said that he taught us
this way because he felt it would the easiest to understand. He also
said there was controversy about some of the things he taught us
(several feature choices, the archephoneme etc)
I first wanted to draw some word trees to see why these words had
different stress, but the thought of those X-positions sent me into
near-fatal flashbacks. ;-)

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Sessifet
Do I have the pleasure of adressing a *real* phonologist/phonetician?
Should I quietly retreat and then leg it away over the hills over
there or admit defeat and hope you take prisoners?

No - I *have* studied a bit of phonetics, but not as my major. My
major was computer science. The requirements for a BSc in compsci are
basically a certain amount of general first year science topics, plus
a certain amount of computing topics, plus a certain amount of
anything you like. For me, the "anything you like" consisted of topics
such as "The Craft and Culture of Creative Writing", "Advanced
Professional English" (since renamed "Creative Nonfiction"),
"Language, Culture and Communication", and - most pertinently here -
"Words and Sounds".

Don't you just love the names of courses they give at Uni? So
wonderfully promising at first glance and often disappointingly boring
when you actually start them. Or of course the other way around.
And as for changing course names: I'm now following "A box of Pandora"
instead of "The box of Pandora" because of a small, but in this case
significant shift in the meaning of a word. There, that was nicely
circumspect, no?
(I'm going to see if any of the cloggies here can see what I'm talking
about.)

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
However, the vast bulk of the phonetics and phonology that I know I
learned not through university at all, but as a hobby. I've done a
certain amount of tinkering in the whole endeavour of conlanging -
the art of inventing your own language - and it's through my
involvement in that hobby that my interest in phonetics developed
(although it has also become an interest in its own right). I took the
university topic in the hope of filling in some gaps.

Sounds like fun. A real language or a computer language BTW? Or is
that a silly question?

Cheers

Karen

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Sessifet

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
However, the vast bulk of the phonetics and phonology that I know I
learned not through university at all, but as a hobby. I've done a
certain amount of tinkering in the whole endeavour of conlanging -
the art of inventing your own language - and it's through my
involvement in that hobby that my interest in phonetics developed
(although it has also become an interest in its own right). I took the
university topic in the hope of filling in some gaps.

Sounds like fun. A real language or a computer language BTW? Or is
that a silly question?

Real. The generally renowned beginner's guide is the Language
Construction Kit <http://www.zompist.com/kit.html> although most of
the examples in the phonetics section only apply if you are American.
There are several mailing lists about, one of which is archived at
<http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html>.

Adrian.

[Graycat]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 03:45:11 +0930, "Flesh-eating Dragon"

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
I don't think someone who can speak English should need to look up a
book to find out how English words are usually stressed ... however
you should avoid picking words with affixes in them, and you should
realise that nouns are the most consistent.

I never looked it up, but I've been told that the stress is
on the third syllable from the back, except where there
aren't three syllables and then it's on the first. And if
understand where the stress is correctly on those words down
there it seems right. Whether third syllable from the back
does or does not correspond to penultimate I have no idea...

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Elephant. Hippopotamus. Octopus. Kangaroo.
Universe. Galaxy. Nebula. Meteor.
Television. Radio. Newspaper. Media.
Orchestra. Violin. Saxophone. Piano.

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Graycat
I never looked it up, but I've been told that the stress is
on the third syllable from the back, except where there
aren't three syllables and then it's on the first. And if
understand where the stress is correctly on those words down
there it seems right. Whether third syllable from the back
does or does not correspond to penultimate I have no idea...

The third syllable from the back is the antepenult, the second
from the back is the penultimate syllable, and the back
syllable is the final syllable.

I picked mostly words of three syllables. "Television" is stressed
on the first syllable, which is the one *before* the antepenult in
that case. "Hippopotamus" is indeed stressed on the antepenult, but
it's also stressed on the initial syllable.

Now I'm going to attempt to totally confuse you:

indicate : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
indication : stressed on INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE.
indicative : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
indecisive : stressed on INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE.
decisive : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also the
PENULTIMATE.
decisiveness : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also the
ANTEPENULT.
decorate : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
redecorate : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
decorative : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is four from the
back.
decoration : stressed on the INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE

Mwahahahahaha!

Adrian.

[Graycat]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:51:46 +0930, "Flesh-eating Dragon"

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
indicate : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
indication : stressed on INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE.

I don't think we pronounce things the same. To me indicate
and indication are pronounced the same except that the
latter has a sjon sound at the end instead of a t. I can
stress the cat bit more, but it doesn't feel natural.

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
indicative : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
indecisive : stressed on INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE.
decisive : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also the
PENULTIMATE.
decisiveness : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also the
ANTEPENULT.
decorate : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
redecorate : stressed on SECOND syllable, which is also ANTEPENULT.
decorative : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is four from the
back.
decoration : stressed on the INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE
Mwahahahahaha!

Yes, those capital letters are evil. Evil I tell you! EVIL!

:o)

[Peadar MacAlasdair]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
decorative : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is four from the
back.
decoration : stressed on the INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE

Do you really pronounce 'decorative' with four syllables? I've never
heard of that before, orthography be damned!

[Lesley Weston]

Post by Peadar MacAlasdair

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
decorative : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is four from the
back.
decoration : stressed on the INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE

Do you really pronounce 'decorative' with four syllables? I've never
heard of that before, orthography be damned!

Of course! How do you pronounce it?

[Orjan Westin]

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Peadar MacAlasdair

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
decorative : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is four from the
back.
decoration : stressed on the INITIAL and third syllables, the
latter also being the PENULTIMATE

Do you really pronounce 'decorative' with four syllables? I've never
heard of that before, orthography be damned!

Of course! How do you pronounce it?

Without the "o" seems to be the common way around here
(Hertfordshire/London)

'rjan

[Lesley Weston]

Post by Orjan Westin

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Peadar MacAlasdair

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
decorative : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is four from the
back.
decoration : stressed on the INITIAL and third syllables, the
latter also being the PENULTIMATE

Do you really pronounce 'decorative' with four syllables? I've never
heard of that before, orthography be damned!

Of course! How do you pronounce it?

Without the "o" seems to be the common way around here
(Hertfordshire/London)

I thought that meant that English had changed since I left (surely not!),
but my husband says he's always said it that way and I just haven't noticed.
I suppose it's like libree, aksherly and prolly, which I do say along with
many other contractions.

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Lesley Weston
I thought that meant that English had changed since I left (surely not!),
but my husband says he's always said it that way and I just haven't noticed.
I suppose it's like libree, aksherly and prolly, which I do say along with
many other contractions.

Comparing 'decorative' with 'lucrative', I'm convinced that in the
former case I pause on the 'r' sound for a few milliseconds longer.
There's not much in it, but the difference is there. Of course, I
haven't tested this scientifically (with a microphone, without
thinking about it, running it through audial software, etc), but I
have no problem calling it an extra (half-)syllable.

Adrian.

[Richard Bos]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Lesley Weston
I thought that meant that English had changed since I left (surely not!),
but my husband says he's always said it that way and I just haven't noticed.
I suppose it's like libree, aksherly and prolly, which I do say along with
many other contractions.

Comparing 'decorative' with 'lucrative', I'm convinced that in the
former case I pause on the 'r' sound for a few milliseconds longer.

You do? Hmm. I find I pause on the c. Then again, usual disclaimer.

Richard

[Maaike]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Comparing 'decorative' with 'lucrative', I'm convinced that in the
former case I pause on the 'r' <snip> I
have no problem calling it an extra (half-)syllable.

Syllabic 'r' sort of thing, then?

-Maaike

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Maaike

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Comparing 'decorative' with 'lucrative', I'm convinced that in the
former case I pause on the 'r' <snip> I
have no problem calling it an extra (half-)syllable.

Syllabic 'r' sort of thing, then?

Precisely. Admittedly a short one, but still.

Adrian.

[Graycat]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:52:59 -0700, Lesley Weston

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Peadar MacAlasdair

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
decorative : stressed on INITIAL syllable, which is four from the
back.
decoration : stressed on the INITIAL and third syllables, the latter
also being the PENULTIMATE

Do you really pronounce 'decorative' with four syllables? I've never
heard of that before, orthography be damned!

Of course! How do you pronounce it?

Dec'rative

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Peadar MacAlasdair
Do you really pronounce 'decorative' with four syllables? I've never
heard of that before, orthography be damned!

Does /dEk.r=***@.tIv/ mean anything to you?

Dec - rrr - uh - tiv.

The second syllable is just a sort of pause in the middle of the
letter 'r'.

Call it three-and-a-half if you like.

Adrian.

[Alec Cawley]

Post by J.G.Harston

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
Are there any other words like this? I am sure that I know of a nother

Project.
This proj'ct is pro-jecting.

I read somewhere of someone who, having forwarded an email, posted to
the original writer "I resent your post". The writer came storming round
asking what was so offensive about it.

[Len Oil]

Post by Alec Cawley
I read somewhere of someone who, having forwarded an email, posted to
the original writer "I resent your post". The writer came storming round
asking what was so offensive about it.

So did I, I was thought it was on here so I didn't repeat it (and same
with if you house (verb) someone in your house (noun) and a couple of
others I can't quite recall...).

--
Terry Pratchett fans | I ku,
Congregate in this locale - | You ku,
Hi I am Len Oil | We all ku for Haiku

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by Graycat

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
A Too-in

I say that more like A Two-in I think.

That's exactly the same, Shirley.

I have described the pronunciation of A'Tuin as what you might hear
during an argument in a cricket commentary:

<giant turtle cricket commentary>

"They're definitely out!"
"Are not! They're still in!"
"They are not!"
"Are too!"
"Are not! Definitely not still in"
"Are too in!"

</giant turtle cricket commentary>

Adrian.

[Graycat]

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 02:12:42 +0930, "Flesh-eating Dragon"

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon

Post by Graycat

Post by X Kyle M Thompson
A Too-in

I say that more like A Two-in I think.

That's exactly the same, Shirley.

It depends on how you pronounce too. My too is more like too
and my two is more like tyew, though the difference isn't
very big and neither really describes how I actually say
A'Tuin.

[Harry Flashman]

Post by Sachin
[Scissors]
This is how I woould pronounce them (with the pronunciation out of other
words)...

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vey (Har[vey]) Tea Na Ri ([ri]ch)

<snip>

In our play we say -- vet-in-ah-ri.

Here's what Gaspode (talking dog and narrator) says during his opening
speach of the play of "the Fifth Elephant".

"....Oh, ere we are... play's startin'. This is the ruler of
Ankh-Morpork, Lord V... er, Lord Ve..., lord VETinari. Sorry it's a dog
thing. We 'ave real problems with the, er v-e-t word. Also the b-a-t-h
word, y'know. And the b-a-d-d-o-g thing? Generations of livin' with people
has played merry hell with canine self-confidence."
Harry

[Mark Gallagher]

If Danny (of <***@4ax.com> fame) were a
mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by Danny
In the many, many productions of Discworld plays I've done, we reached
one conclusion - Ankh-Morpork can be pronounced however you like, the
audience won't care.

Indeed. It's like never getting a consensus pronunciation of such
difficult-to-determine names as "Queanbeyan", "Canberra", "San
Francisco"[0]; if anything, it's more realistic that a name as
complicated as "Ankh-Morpork" cannot be prounounced consistently.

Post by Danny
However, for *other* names, it's important to get them consistent
(as long as *everyone* says them the same, it won't really matter to
anyone except pedantic fans if you get them wrong :p)
- Vetinari

*Vet*-tin-*ah*-ri. Yes, it misses the pun, but it seems more accurate.

Post by Danny
- Angua

*Ang*-yew-*ah*.

Post by Danny
- Detritus

Der-*trite*-arse.

Post by Danny
- Genua

*Gen*-yew-ah.

Post by Danny
- Lancre

*Lan*-kerr.

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

Oo-ber-vald.

Post by Danny
- Great A'Tuin

Great-eht-yewn.

Post by Danny
and so on...

How'd I do? <looks out, apprehensive of pedantic fans... />



[0] Apparently. At least, different names for the caffeinated city
(not necessarily pronunciations) was enough to get the great
Empreror Norton riled up.

[Harry Flashman]

Post by Mark Gallagher
mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by Danny
In the many, many productions of Discworld plays I've done, we reached
one conclusion - Ankh-Morpork can be pronounced however you like, the
audience won't care.

Indeed. It's like never getting a consensus pronunciation of such
difficult-to-determine names as "Queanbeyan", "Canberra", "San
Francisco"[0]; if anything, it's more realistic that a name as
complicated as "Ankh-Morpork" cannot be prounounced consistently.

This completely off topic, but what does the [R] part of the subject line
mean?
Harry

[Mark Gallagher]

If Harry Flashman (of <NDb9d.17360$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
fame) were a mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by Harry Flashman
This completely off topic, but what does the [R] part of the subject line
mean?

It's a "subject line tag". All threads in afp are (or, well, should
be) tagged with a letter within two square brackets, which indicates
the type of message within. "[R]" is not strictly necessary, as in
theory all untagged posts are on-topic, but nonetheless...

[R] On-topic, relevant to Terry Pratchett, or DW, or whatever
[I] irrelevant, off-topic
[G] related to the computer games
[M] talking about afp
[F] talking about fan meets or fan-created stuff. I think the Tale
postings were [F], weren't they?

There's probably more tags... check the FAQ at http://lspace.org/ for
more info.

[X Kyle M Thompson]

Post by Mark Gallagher
fame) were a mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by Harry Flashman
This completely off topic, but what does the [R] part of the subject line
mean?

It's a "subject line tag". [...] "[R]" is not strictly necessary, as in
theory all untagged posts are on-topic, but nonetheless...

IIRC that applies to abp only.

kt.

[Leo Breebaart]

"[R]" is not strictly necessary, as in theory all untagged
posts are on-topic, but nonetheless...

No, that's not true. There are people who cut down on spam and
cruft by killfiling anything that is not tagged at all.

If you want your Pratchett-relevant article to be read by as many
interested people as possible (and why wouldn't you?), you'll tag
it [R].

[Harry Flashman]

Post by Mark Gallagher
fame) were a mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by Harry Flashman
This completely off topic, but what does the [R] part of the subject line
mean?

It's a "subject line tag". All threads in afp are (or, well, should
be) tagged with a letter within two square brackets, which indicates
the type of message within. "[R]" is not strictly necessary, as in
theory all untagged posts are on-topic, but nonetheless...
[R] On-topic, relevant to Terry Pratchett, or DW, or whatever
[I] irrelevant, off-topic
[G] related to the computer games
[M] talking about afp
[F] talking about fan meets or fan-created stuff. I think the Tale
postings were [F], weren't they?
There's probably more tags... check the FAQ at http://lspace.org/ for
more info.

<snip>

It is a good idea. I don't think I have seen it other newsgroups. Is it just
a afp practice?
Harry

[Mark Gallagher]

If Harry Flashman (of <LLM9d.19246$***@news-
server.bigpond.net.au> fame) were a mechanical chaos merchant from
Mars, they'd say...
<snip: tagging />

Post by Harry Flashman
It is a good idea. I don't think I have seen it other newsgroups. Is it just
a afp practice?

Tagging some posts "[OT]" is a long-standing tradition across all but
the least civilised ports in the storm that is USENET. Also, some
newsgroups develop their own peculiar tags --- a football ng I'm
subscribed to uses "[R]" (for match reports) indicating spoilers
within.

I'm not aware of any ng where tagging is as developed as in AFP, where
practically every post is tagged. But given how well my memory has
been lately[0], whether I'm aware of anything or not doesn't count for
much...



[0] Quick, what's caucus? The diff between abp and afp? The Aussie
punctuation joke? etc. etc. etc.

[Stevie D]

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Mark Gallagher
[R] On-topic, relevant to Terry Pratchett, or DW, or whatever

etc...

Post by Harry Flashman
It is a good idea. I don't think I have seen it other newsgroups. Is it just
a afp practice?

We use tags on AFP because it is a high-traffic newsgroup, and we're
generally quite - well, I'm not sure what the right word is. I was
vacillating towards "sensible", but that definitely isn't it. I think
"clued up" would be the best¹. Because there are so many distinct
categories of post, they were put in place hundreds of years ago so
that people who only wanted to read stuff about the books could filter
so that only [R] threads appeared, pupil who didn't play games could
filter out all the [G] threads and never read them, etc.

As Mark said, [OT] is a generic mark for "off-topic".

There are, I am sure, some other newsgroups that use tags in the way
that we do, but I've not found them. I did suggest on another group
using a couple of tags to enable people to filter out certain types of
post, but the suggestion was never taken up.

¹ Yes, I know it's two words. Shut up.

[Graycat]

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 13:36:45 GMT, "Harry Flashman"

Post by Harry Flashman

Post by Mark Gallagher
mechanical chaos merchant from Mars, they'd say...

Post by Danny
In the many, many productions of Discworld plays I've done, we reached
one conclusion - Ankh-Morpork can be pronounced however you like, the
audience won't care.

Indeed. It's like never getting a consensus pronunciation of such
difficult-to-determine names as "Queanbeyan", "Canberra", "San
Francisco"[0]; if anything, it's more realistic that a name as
complicated as "Ankh-Morpork" cannot be prounounced consistently.

This completely off topic, but what does the [R] part of the subject line
mean?

It means the discussion is [R]elevant to Pratchett or his
works. [I] means it is irrelevant to the same. Basically it
means what other groups might call On Topic and Off Topic.

Just for completeness there are also:
[C]ascade
[M]eta thread
[G]ame thread
[FAQ]

[Graycat]

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:54:48 +0200, Graycat

Post by Graycat
[C]ascade
[M]eta thread
[G]ame thread
[FAQ]

Oh, and [F]an activity.

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Danny
However, for *other* names, it's important to get them consistent
(as long as *everyone* says them the same, it won't really matter to
anyone except pedantic fans if you get them wrong :p)

Indeed. Given A-M's cosmopolitan background, it makes sense that people
from different backgrounds should have different accents and pronounce
it differently - just as we have Lun-dun, Lun-dOn, Lunn'n for our
capital city.

So characters of Uberwaldean backgrounds could say, somewhat
teutonically, Onk-Mor'porK. Nobby, city urchin, should have a somewhat
whiny and nasal Enk-Morp'k. Sybil and, perhaps, Vimes, should have a
rather long and aristocratic Aankh-More-Pork. And so on.

[Darin Johnson]

Post by Danny
However, for *other* names, it's important to get them consistent

I don't why see myself. People in real life don't pronounce names the
same way, not even in small isolated communities. A big cosmopolitan
place like Ankh-Morpork probably has lots of variants on all the names
you list. The upper-crust would definately pronounce Vetinari
differently than the gutter urchins., and the pronunciation of Uberwald
or Genua, like most foreign names, depends upon how well travelled the
speaker is.

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

Like most foreign names it depends upon how well travelled the
speaker is. How does one say "Ostwald" in real life? Or "Genoa"?
Or "Carribean"? And even if there is a correct answer the people
on the street might not know it.

[CCA]

Danny wrote

[DW pronunciation]

Post by Danny
- Vetinari

Vet-in-AR-i

Post by Danny
- Angua

ANG-you-a

Post by Danny
Detritus

De-TRY-tus (although I always think of it as DET-rit-us)

Post by Danny
- Genua

I say GEN-you-a, but I suppose it could also be gen-YOU-a.

Post by Danny
- Lancre

Apparently it's LAN-ker, but I've always preferred LANC-ray. Which I know is
somewhat erroneous, but who cares?

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

UB-er-vald. I would presume it would be -vald rather than -wald.
CCA:)
Family Bites Website and Sample Chapter at http://www.falboroughhall.co.uk
Live Journal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/ciciaye

[Flesh-eating Dragon]

Post by CCA

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

UB-er-vald. I would presume it would be -vald rather than -wald.

The vampires all pronounce their Ws the German way, yet in _TAM_ the
characters discuss how to pronounce the Ü yet don't even mention the
W, which is strange. Perhaps Uberwald has dialects too, and the W is
a V only in some?

As for the pronunciations, I'm not going to bother. One day I'll get
myself the right sort of microphone so that I can put my
pronunciations online.

Adrian.

[Len Oil]

Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
The vampires all pronounce their Ws the German way, yet in _TAM_ the
characters discuss how to pronounce the Ü yet don't even mention the
W, which is strange. Perhaps Uberwald has dialects too, and the W is
a V only in some?

Everybody (FSVO...) English /knows/ that the Germanic peoples say "v"
for "w" and similar simple transliterations of phonemes[1], the same as
Orientals get 'L's and 'R's mixed up[2] and thanks to Chekov (the bridge
officer, not the playwright) the Russians say "w" instead of "v". (We
all /know/ this, and are wrong in oh so many seemingly insignificant
ways that I know have been previously recounted on this forum, most
recently the "Nuclear Wessles" misconception debunking... :)

Taking this as a base, perhaps the A-M population would therefore have
no comment about such a similar Uberwaldian tendency to 'transphonemate'
between two 'normal' vocalisations, perhaps even assuming that the
/real/ pronunciation of local place-names is the central-Sto-Plains
standard and that it's just the locals (under some sort of compulsive
speech disorder) that make them sound otherwise. (A Roundworld
equivalent would be someone English stating that "the Welsh call Wales
'Kim-roo' but they pronounce it as 'Kum-ree'", give or take an
overwhelming regional accent of their own and of course whether they're
familiar with the North/South-Wales versions.)

When it comes to something that isn't a constituent of their own
language, /then/ they might make the comment as suggested. Much as most
of us English can grasp that double-L in Welsh has a special sound that
they can reproduced with varying degrees of success, but most (perhaps)
know that it's not just an "L" sound.

My theory, anyway.

[1] The classic being the Gestapo officer blurting out "Vee haff vays
off making you tock!", where w=>v, v=>ff, etc...)
[2] "Supprise, supprise!. Get your supprise at the gleenglocers!".

--
Terry Pratchett fans | I ku,
Congregate in this locale - | You ku,
Hi I am Len Oil | We all ku for Haiku

[The Stainless Steel Cat]

Post by CCA
[DW pronunciation]

Post by Danny
- Angua

ANG-you-a

AN-gwah

Post by CCA

Post by Danny
Detritus

De-TRY-tus (although I always think of it as DET-rit-us)

dee-TRITE-us

Post by CCA

Post by Danny
- Uberwald (that's a trickone. Should you say UberVald or not?)]

UB-er-vald. I would presume it would be -vald rather than -wald.

OOBUR-vold

Cat.

[Darin Johnson]

Post by Harry Flashman
Can anyone help me?

Pterry pronounces it himself in his latest BBC interview, which
I seem to recall as "ah-nk" but that could just be due to internal
mental translation from British to American. The "Aink" pronunciation
always seemed strange to me but I've heard it before, whereas I've
never heard of the "Uhnk" pronunciation before today.