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[A] Thud! Annotations
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Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett

By Edmund Schluessel

These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.

and

now

here

comes

a

modicum

of

spoiler

space!

(pre-half title) - "500,000 years old" - Trollish writing
clearly predates Dwarfish and Human, as established in pre-existing DW
canon. Compare Dwarfish beliefs in this book.

1 - "Sam Vimes shaved himself." - Possibly a synthesis of the
well-known logical paradox "the barber shaves all those who do not
shave themselves; who shaves the barber?" and the question stated
many times in this book, "who watches the watchers?"

2 - "The steel was a lot better than the steel you got today" -
Dwarves make the best steel (see later at the well). Is the old steel
really better, or is Vimes seeing through rose-colored glasses, as he
will several times in this novel?

Ibid. - "Grag Hamcrusher" - My first guess for the origin of
this name is that, like Goodmountain in _The Truth_, Hamcrusher's
name may be a translation of the name of some famous demagogue from
Earth history. The best guess I have so far is "Ham" -> German
"Schenk" -> "Schinklgruber", a purported real name for Adolf
Hitler, but this seems a stretch.

Ibid. - "A cap-brim sewn with pennies" - British Special Forces
have been described as doing just such a thing for brawling; compare
also the deadly hat of Auric Goldfinger's henchman Oddjob in the
James Bond adventure _Goldfinger_.

4 - "Mr., er, Fizz" - first mentioned in _Monstrous Regiment_
as the Ankh Morpork Times' cartoonist.

5 - "Methodia Rascal" - What might be the origin of this name?

7 - "His ridiculous accent that grew thicker or thinner..." -
This is the well-documented linguistic phenomenon of "register
change", and is not necessarily done consciously.

8 - "Mr. Pessimal" - Possibly, this name is a portmanteau of
"pessimist" (or indeed "pessary") and "decimal". Pterry's
Dickensian character naming scheme continues to grow.

9 - "Do you know Mr. John Smith?" - the popular British
character of the Doctor in _Dr. Who_ occasionally goes by "Doctor
John Smith", and has worn colourful vests in many of his
incarnations. Compare also the vampires playing at being everyday
humans in _Carpe Jugulum_.

11 - "for thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances?" - From
this, we can conclude that it is possible to live a reasonably
middle-class lifestyle on thirty-eight $AM a month.

Ibid. - "You're not a vampire, Doreen!..." - compare the
inherited vampire couple in _Moving Pictures_.

12 - "Count Vargo St. Gruet von Vilinus!" - one of the battles
of Koom Valley took place in Vilinus Pass.

Ibid - "collects bananas" - See note for page 85.

Ibid - "Cockbill Street" - see _Feet of Clay_.

Ibid - "Salacia Deloresista Amanita..." - "Amanita" is a
genus of mushrooms containing many of the most toxic known.
"Zeldana" seems to be some kind of construction material.

17 - "Quid custodiet ipsos custodes?" - Juvenal, "Satires".
"Who shall guard the guardsmen?" but often translated as "who
watches the watchers?" either of which fits in an AM City Watch
context. The line's original contexts relates to locking up one's
wife in order to prevent her from cheating, followed by the fear that
she may be seduced by the guard watching her.

19 - "Fred Colon shook his head....'We knew what one another was
thinking...'" - not only is the Watch looking back on the
less-complicated days of _Guards, Guards!_, but Pterry himself may be
referring to the lighter, less developed style and content of his
earlier Watch novels.

20 - "Sarsaparilla" - An American soft drink brewed in part
from a bitter aromatic plant of the same name (genus Smilax).

21 - "Mr. Shine" - Probably this name has nothing to do with
the Pink Floyd epic "Shine On, You Crazy Diamond" from the _Wish
You Were Here_ album, but it might.

22 - "Gods damn the wretched place" - Blatant foreshadowing.

Ibid. - "at the Battle of Koom Valley that mutual hatred
became...Official" - Many interethnic rivalries are symbolized by a
single battle; one of the most relevant in our age is the Battle of
Kosovo Polje between Serbia and the Ottoman Empire, which, despite
having happened on 15 June, 1389, became of immediate importance during
the collapse of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. The outcome of the battle is
unknown but thought to have been a tactical draw, and the Serbian knez
and Ottoman sultan both died during the fight. Another battle of Kosovo
Polje was fought on the same spot in 1448.

23 - "The parades were okay" - in Northern Ireland,
nationalistic parades by both sides were once quite common both as a
display of pride and as a means of intimidation.

24 - "clang" - Compare the American affectation "bling",
gaudy jewelry ostensibly named from the sound of rattling platinum and
often associated with swagger, machismo, and ostentatious display.

Ibid - "Beware of the troll...." - This passage, although not
an actual quotation, follows the style of Adolf Hitler's _Mein
Kampf_.

30 - "Tawneee" - For comparison, the names of dancers at a US
strip club (The Camelot in Washington, DC): Alexis, Allisha, Amanda,
Amber, Angel, Angela, Anna, Becca, Beth, Beverly, Bo, Caprice, Carmen,
Chelsie, Dawn, Desiree, Devon, Diva, Grace, Kayla, Holiday, Idalys,
Jasmine, Brandy, J.J., Katya, Lynette, Marianne, Michelle, Mickey,
Rachelle 2, Rita, Robin, Sam, Sherrie, Sidney, Tamara, Zena. Compare
also the American actress Tawny Kitaen, born with the name Julie and
known for being associated with several celebrities.

Ibid - "pole-dancing" - the mazurka, a lively dance originating
in the Masurian Lakes region of northeastern Poland and performed in
3/4 time.

31 - "Two sequins and a bootlace" - In contrast to its other
virtues, Ankh-Morpork's dance bars are apparently non-nude (or at
least this one is).

Ibid. - "You're not supposed to put it anywhere, Sarge." - a
common rule of ecdysiastic establishments is an admonition against
touching the dancers.

33 - "attitude of a preoccupied chicken" - The
chicken-as-haunting-demon idea occurs thrice in _Thud!_ - in Sir
Reynold's role of what Sam Vimes should have known about earlier but
for his preoccupation, as Methodia Rascal's demon, and as Angua's
reminder of her incomplete civilization.

34 - "since his lordship held Views" - Compare Lord
Vetinari's attitude toward mimes; while generally not prone to
directly interfere in the workings of the city, he takes an active hand
in regulating its artistic life.

Ibid.- "fifty feet long" - and as a consequence about sixteen
feet in diameter. A painting in the round is properly termed a
"cyclorama" and the technique was invented in 1767 by Irish painter
Robert Barker; one of the most notable cycloramas is one by Paul D.
Philippoteaux depicting the Battle of Gettysburg, and another depicts
Waterloo. Most cycloramas are considerably greater in circumference
than "The Battle of Koom Valley".

36 - "Don't Talk to Me About Mondays" - Possibly a collision
of Garfield the Cat's "I hate Mondays" (or the Boomtown Rats'
"I Don't Like Mondays") and Marvin the Paranoid Android's
"Life? Don't talk to me about life."

39 - "No urns" - A quick browse through several important
Odalisques haven't found any with urns, although one does appear in
Michaelangelo's "The Drunkenness of Noah".

40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.

Ibid. - "The Koom Valley Codex" - Dan Browne's _The Da Vinci
Code_, despite (or perhaps because of) being pseudomystical drivel, was
a world-wide bestseller in 2003 and quickly inspired a film. The book,
a highly sensationalistic work concerning supposed hidden knowledge in
the Roman Catholic church regarding the true nature of the
Resurrection, involves the murder of someone aware of this knowledge in
order to keep it hidden, along with keys hidden in Da Vinci paintings.

44 - "She had short hair...a girl who wouldn't mind passing for
one" - Sally may be written with some lesbian subtext. Contrast
Maledicta from _Monstrous Regiment_.

45 - "Any history....throat biting" - Sally was apparently
born, not made, a vampire.

47 - "I have crumbled and I can't get up" - The phrase
"I've fallen, and I can't get up!" originated in an American
commercial for LifeCall, a medical emergency alert service.

50 - "War, Nobby. Huh! What is it good for?...." - This passage
parodies Edwin Starr's 1970 Vietnam War protest song, "War".
Contrast the use of "Fixin' to Die Rag" in _Monstrous Regiment_.
Also note that Colon and Nobby are both veterans of the Ankh
Morpork-Klatch war in _Jingo_.

51 - "COPERS ARE BARSTUDS" - compare the corruption of
"bastard" to "brass stud" in _Feet of Clay_.

52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for _Going
Postal_.

54 - "Once some madman finds out..." - possibly a reference to
Carcer from _Night Watch_.

55 - "Gooseberry"; "Bluenose" - the BlackBerry is a series
of handheld personal digital assistants manufactured by Research In
Motion Limited of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. Many models incorporate
the Bluetooth specification for wireless networking.

56 - "Splong!" - "Pong", commonly known as the first video
game, experienced a resurgence in popularity, as did other classic
video games, as the popularization of handheld computerized assistants
increased the demand for simple time-passing games that consumed little
memory and could be displayed on a low-resolution screen.

Ibid - "iHUM" - Apple's iPod device for storing and playing
music became so popular in the early 2000s that I probably had no good
reason for writing this annotation. Oh well.

57 - "Ankh-Morpork is mostly built on Ankh-Morpork" - first
revealed in _The Truth_.

58 - "where does that lead?" - Vimes' resolution to avoid
taking the first step down a slippery slope is another theme developed
in this book.

61 - "Let 'em laugh....At least they're not throwing things"
- compare the description of Otto Chriek's "music-hall vampire"
act on page 7.

62 - "a circle with a horizontal line through it" - Such a
glyph is the symbol of Transport For London in general and the London
Underground, the oldest and largest metro system in the world, in
specific.

63 - "another circle, this time with two diagonal lines slashed
through it" - Depending on how one interprets this passage, this
glyph could be equivalent to the "No Parking" or "No Stopping"
road signs, or the "Restriction End" sign.

64 - "dusty black sedan chairs....There were no windows" - the
kings of Persia during the Classical era travelled in closed-off sedan
chairs in order that they might never be seen by common folk; the kings
of France, meanwhile, are reputed to have travelled in closed-off
carriages so as not to see the land outside their palaces.

65 - "daylight face" - Helmclever, like Fred Colon, is a
liaison officer.

65 FN - "if only the pawns united..." The _Dr. Who_ serial "The
Curse of Fenric" includes a chess problem whose resolution requires
the pawns joining together and turning against the king; recall also
the Vimes family's history of regicide.

66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch increases
parallels between Dwarfish culture in Ankh-Morpork and Arabic culture
in Europe.

69 - "They had been building with stone here ten thousand years
ago" - Compare the age of the Trollish writing noted at the
beginning of the book.

70 - "small deer" -Ardent may mean "deer" in its more
archaic sense of any forest-dwelling creature. Compare the Trollish
word "oograh".

71 - "you're undermining my city?" - Quite literally; watch
this metaphor.

73 - "You destroy written words?" - Compare Judaism, many of
whose Orthodox adherents refuse to write the name of God for fear it
might be destroyed or disrespected.

76 - "The grags are the law....They interpret laws" - the role
of grags is akin to that of mullahs or imams in Islam, or rabbis in
Judaism; as contrasted with those of priests and ministers in
Christianity, who usually enforce laws set centrally, either by the
Pope or by church synods.

79 - "giant wooly elephants" - Brick's psychedelic
experiences possibly belie a latent psychic spiritual ability; in this
instance he has seen the distant past.

Ibid. - "metamorphorical rock" - another portmanteau: of
"metamorphic", as in rock that changes under intense pressure and
heat; and "metaphorical".

81 - "plum-cake mob" - presumably, a mass of dense but
generally bland and indistinguishable individuals riddled with
troublemaking raisins.

83 - "deep-down dwarfs" - "deep down" speaks to the word
"fundamental", via Latin "fundamentum". Another meaning of
"fundament" is, according to Webster's Dictionary, "the part of
a land surface that has not been altered by human activities".

Ibid. - "The brighter the light the blacker the shadow?" -
compare the "dark light" of _The Truth_.

84 footnote - "In, Out, and Shake It All About" - three motions
performed in the party dance the "Hokey Pokey" or "Hokey
Cokey".

85 - "If you're not an apple, you're a banana..." - Apples
and bananas appear throughout the book. I'm still trying to figure
out if this is a legitimate metaphor for the division of one society
into two different but not intrinsically opposed groups, or just a red
herring.

91 - "That was what made the Watch a police force..." - See
note for page 19. This passage may be another metareference to the
growth of the Watch since _Guards, Guards!_.

92 - "small loaf of dwarf bread" - Is this from _Feet of Clay_?

Ibid. - "The imp was a very pale green" - possibly a reference
to Beastie, the demon icon of the BSD operating system.

94 - "...not because he had a huge interest in the results..."
- Contrast how, in _Night Watch_, Vimes has an exact idea of the
tonnages of foodstuffs consumed by the city.

96 - "They were baaad trolls. At least, they'd like everyone to
think so." - Many of the street gangs in United States history were
ethnic in origin and competed primarily with gangs of other
ethnicities.

99 - "Der Pork Futures Warehouse" - First seen in _Men at
Arms_.

100 - "you're on the side of the people" - Another contrast
with _Night Watch_, in which Vimes dismisses the idea of "the
people" as a conceit.

101 - "Er...permission t'speak freely...." - Recall, in this
passage, that Detritus's first partner was a dwarf.

102 - "It looked like a city" - A city or house is employed as
an image representing the mind at least as far back as C.G. Jung's
_Man and His Symbols_. More recently, Stephen King's _Dreamcatcher_
(novel 2001, film 2003) features the character of Jonesy being pursued
through the metaphorical streets of his hometown by an alien trying to
take him over.

Ibid. - "who had never drifted close to a major accretion..." -
Compare the origin of gods in _Small Gods_ and the notion of inspirons
in _Men at Arms_.

104 - "'Baaa!' said Vimes" - Is this simply Vimes
shivering, or is he subconsciously projecting _Where's My Cow_?

109 - "Sediment'ry trash" - i.e., not metamorphorical.

114 - "Vimes was a runner by nature" - compare _Guards,
Guards!_ and the basics of Watch survival in the bad old days.

119 - "various approximations of the hour..." - compare the
clattering of bells in _Night Watch_.

122 - "Buglit!" - The 2004 film "Meet the Fockers" contains
a similar gag. Note that this telling of the Vimes street version
differs somewhat from that portrayed in _Where's My Cow?_

132 - "You've laid rails?" - see note for Page 62.

134 - "Lips that touch Ichor shall never touch Mine" - The
temperance anthem "lips that touch wine shall never touch mine". I
have no idea where it comes from. Recall that Vimes is a recovering
alcoholic, and contrast his attitude toward the Black Ribboners - he
thinks a word against the movement, no matter what he feels about
vampires in general - with Angua's.

136 - "with only a slit for the eyes" - compare the burqa worn
by conservative Muslim women.

138 - "Even the river catches fire in a hot summer!" - the
Cuyahoga River, which runs through eastern Ohio in the United States,
was so polluted that it caught fire on several occasions between 1936
and 1969. It's better now.

Ibid. - "Trolls don't clean their feet much..." - compare
_Feet of Clay_, in which tracked mud is one of the most important
clues.

139 - "Vilinus Pass" - see note for page 12.

140 - "When we have our Koom Valley...burned to the ground". The
first part of this passage foreshadows Otto's appearance at the end
of the book; the last sentence takes us all the way back to the opening
of _The Color of Magic_.

Ibid. - "Humans would have gone insane living like that..." -
The 2003 novel _Coalescent_ by Stephen Baxter describes the society of
humans living in just such circumstances.

144 - "That'd fill a big room!" - Loam (see page 212) has a
density of around 1.3 grams per cubic centimetre; 40 Imperial tons of
loam would take up about 30 cubic meters.

Ibid. - "...write-only documents." - When I was applying to
Cambridge, all of the forms I had to submit were in at least
triplicate; some were in sextuplicate. I was assured by people I know
within the university's bureaucracy that at most one of any of those
would ever be seen by human eyes.

145 - "The Plaza of Broken Moons" - Rincewind and Twoflower
have lunch here in _The Color of Magic_.

146 - "...eats the apple and the banana." - see note for page
85.

147 - "tomato ketchup is not a vegetable." - During Ronald
Reagan's presidency in the United States, the Department of
Agriculture, setting nutritional standards for public school lunches,
famously published rules under which a serving of tomato ketchup could
be counted as a "vegetable". The rule was retracted after much
popular ridicule; during the Clinton administration, however, salsa
(which, if prepared correctly, does have a substantial nutritional
content) was classified as a serving of vegetables under the same
conditions.

149 - "It didn't get political on you" - Recall that the plot
in _Guards, Guards!_ was explicitly political, concerning a conspiracy
to replace Vetinari.

152 - "When push came to shove...removed was yours." - Recall
the citizen militia of _Night Watch_.

155 - "numknuts" - akin, of course, to nunchaku (popularly
nunchucks), a Chinese flail consisting of two wooden shafts connected
by a chain or cord.

158 - "Lengths of wood...a line in the sand." - The origin of
the word "barricade" is, in fact, "collection of barrels".

166 - "...the mouthwash was afterwards never strong enough." -
A wolf eating a dog would be cannibalism, or almost.

166 footnote - "Empirical Crescent...all this by accident." -
It is notable that B.S. Johnson's works, which started out as merely
inept in earlier books, have developed into quasi-magical perversions
of the very fabric of space and time. Compare also Robert Heinlein's
1941 short story "-And He Built A Crooked House-".

169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." - Compare
"borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as described in
_Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty *might* just
barely weigh 40 pounds.

171 - "A paying audience?" - Pterry may, in this passage, be
playing with the slash fiction community reading this book.

181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.

183 - "Lance Constable von Humpeding needs an apple, urgently."
- see note for page 85. It has to mean *something*, dammit.

193 - "pull der other one, it is havin' bells on." - it might
be interesting, or at least pleasingly obsesssssssive, to compile a
list of all the times this phrase or its variants appear in Discworld.

198 - "All dem dancin' teef!" - This is a reference to
something, but I don't remember what and most of my books are still
in America. Help?

201 - "It what you 'scrape up'...pigeon droppings" -
compare the recipe for crack cocaine. Also, pigeon droppings are loaded
with phosphates; this may tie in to what is known about trollish
petrochemistry.

204 - "A wukwuk is what you make wi' charcoal an' niter an'
Slab" - Charcoal and niter (potassium nitrate) constitute two main
ingredients of gunpowder; compare Ridcully's recipe for Wow-Wow
Sauce.

205 - "Someone's pinched the secret of fire, have you seen my
golden apple?" - Fingers-Mazda is recorded in _Men at Arms_ as
having stolen fire from the Gods. The golden *falchion* was stolen from
Astoria in Ephebian legend, as stated in (I think) _Small Gods_. See
again the note for page 85.

206 - "No. 3 Tenth Egg Street" - Tenth Egg Street is previously
referred to as the home base of Willikins's boyhood street gang.

210 - "Just Sex, Pussy Galore and No Brainer" - presumably, a
Sex on the Beach without the beach. Since the "beach" is, in that
drink, the pseudotropical blend of cranberry & grapefruit juices,
"Just Sex" would be the remaining vodka and peach schnapps. There
is also a cocktail called the "Brain Eraser" which may relate to
the third: Goldschlager (cinnamon schnapps), Kahlua, and vodka.
"Pussy Galore", meanwhile, is - well, if you haven't seen
"Goldfinger" by now, go and rent it.

211 - "Are you telling me you're two people? With one body?"
- contrast Miss Level from _A Hat Full Of Sky_, who is one person
with two bodies. Indeed, while we're on the subject, compare the
symptoms of infection by the Following Dark in this book with those of
the Hiver in that one.

214 - "I can regulate the temperature of my brain by reflecting all
heat" - In addition to being the hardest substance known to
science, diamond has the additional property of being the best thermal
conductor known to science. This fact is important because it's not
enough for Mr. Shine to reflect heat from the environment, but also to
dispose of heat he generates through the very act of thinking.

224 - "There was the sound of tinkling glass..." - Recall the
ease with which Vimes has foiled a multitude of Assassins' attempts
on his life in previous novels. On the other hand, no Assassin would
think of digging up through the floor; he might get non-black on him.

225 - "in accordance with some butlerian duty" - Possibly an
oblique reference to the "Butlerian jihad" against sentient
machines in Frank Herbert's _Dune_ series.

229 - "two iron boots were cooling from white heat in a puddle of
molten sand." - There's a Bond film where an evil female villain
is killed with some kind of projectile explosive, leaving only a pair
of smoking high heels, but I can't remember the details. Also compare
the vaporization of victims in _Guards, Guards!_.

231 - "They will burn for what they did....They shall bur-" -
The increasing influence of the Following Dark on Vimes is illustrated
by Vimes changing from from the declarative "will burn" to the
imperative "shall burn".

Ibid. - "hi-ho, hi-ho" - The "Hiho Song" appears
spontaneously in dwarfish culture in _Moving Pictures_.

233 - "There is green around his mouth, sir." - Possibly
arsenic. The use of suicide attackers in the modern world is,
unfortunately, well-known; recall that this book was published after,
but written before, the 7/7/2005 London Transit bombings. The use of
slow poison by an assassin, however, may originate with the original
series _Star Trek_ episode "Journey to Babel".

242 - "I'm not a bondage kind of person" - See note for page
171.

249 - "And you are Setha Ironcrust....Gimlet Gimlet....Yo Rat!"
- We see Ironcrust's bakeries in _Feet of Clay_ and Gimlet in
_Moving Pictures_. "Yo Rat!" plays on "Yo! Sushi", a chain of
quick Japanese restaurants located throughout London.

249 - "Bashfull Bashfullsson" - another traditional name; see
Cheery Littlebottom's introduction in _Feet of Clay_.

253 footnote - "Poosticks" - "Poohsticks" is a game played
by dwellers of the Hundred Acre Wood in the _Winnie-the-Pooh_ stories
by A. A. Milne.

254 - "Thank God It's Open" - TGIO refers to the American
chain "T.G.I. Friday's", known as a chain of family-dining
restaurants in the USA but with a few dozen locations in the United
Kingdom. UK T.G.I. Friday's have retained the chain's original
reputation, as a restaurant open late and with overpriced fruity
cocktails.

Ibid. - "Screaming Orgasm" - An actual drink: on Earth,
Amaretto (almond liqueur), Kahlua (sweet coffee liqueur), Baileys Irish
Cream (whiskey and cream), and vodka (distilled death). In short, a
strongly alcoholic, unbelievably sweet, dark headache in a glass.
(Serve in a lowball glass over ice with an umbrella). Note also that
Bearhuggers, a brand of whiskey we've seen before in _Guards,
Guards!_ and _Men at Arms_, is, like Baileys, spelled without an
apostrophe.

256 - "no woman under fifty uses the word 'bosom'" - Sally,
recall, is 51.

260 - "the voice of B'hrian Bloodaxe" - see the note for page
29 in _The Fifth Elephant_. Recall that in that book, B'hrian's
reign was fifteen hundred years ago; now it is, apparently, two
thousand.

266 - "All I've got is yung Helmclever here..." - Ironically,
Helmclever's statement as recorded might become admissible as a dying
declaration. (IANAL)

269 - "Fun. What is it good for?" - See note for page 50.

273 - "And they were laying rails..." - See note for page 62.

278 - "'Have you ever been up to the attics here, Sam?'
'No!'" - How long has Sam lived in this house, and he still
hasn't seen every room? Compare the Jungian image of the house noted
on page 102.

279 - "Serves you right for drinking...vine" - See annotations
for page 54 of _Carpe Jugulum_ and page 30 of _Monstrous Regiment_.

281 - "APPLE CORES, VARIOUS" - see note for page 85 again.
Honestly, I have nothing better to do.

Ibid. - "lacrosse sticks" - Lacrosse being a sport which in our
world originated among the natives of northeastern North America, I am
interested to know its Discworld origins.

Ibid. footnote - "He was just puzzled at the suggestion that he was
there to do the food a favor." - compare the Dish of the Day in
Douglas Adams' _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_.

286 - "I don't even have a galli!" - possibly a play on the
Latin for "chicken", "gallus" - Vimes is running off without
even a chicken to guide him. Or something.

291 - "Generations of rascally drunk student wizards..." - We
see these loose bricks in _Equal Rites_ and again in _Soul Music_.

295 - "It was slow, but never stopped following." - Compare Mr.
Pump's steady, relentless pursuit in _Going Postal_.

297 - "Something happens at thirteen miles an hour." - Possibly
a reference to the 88 miles an hour of "Back to the Future"; see
annotations for _Soul Music_.

298 - "there's seven broomsticks nailed underneath each coach."
- Compare how Moist von Lipwig pointedly did not use a broomstick in
the final race in _Going Postal_.

299 - "his marriage to Ruby" - Ruby first appears in _Moving
Pictures_.

300 - "Signed the message 'Aicalas'." - Compare Mr. Soak in
_Thief of Time_, but particularly see the note for page 8 of _Carpe
Jugulum_.

302 - "It was said that even clouds kept away from the desolation
that was Koom Valley." - It is more likely, however, that this is
an example of "rain shadow", the tendency of clouds to stop at
mountain ranges rather than go over, as is so well-known to the
inhabitants of northwestern England.

Ibid. - "many had ever been found again" -The first American
printing contains a number of typographical errors, especially near the
end.

304 - "And there was a fifth horse....The part of a horse that was,
in fact, Horse." - exactly this same image appears in _A Hat Full
of Sky_.

305 - "Perhaps sound was unable to keep up." - The speed of
sound in normal air is around 750 miles an hour.

312 - "The landscape ahead was strangely bluish..." - Compare
the change in colors seen in similar circumstances in _Thief of Time_,
and also recall the "slow light" of the Discworld.

Ibid. - "I fink my brain's still back home." - There's a
quotation from _The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ about how no
matter how fast the body travels, the soul travels as fast as something
or other...I don't have my copy close to hand.

Ibid. - "It's amazing how the inn's beer helped recovery."
- There are two schools of thought about alcoholism, one that a
recovering alcoholic must never drink again and another that moderation
can be learned. Vimes apparently follows the second school; or
possibly, strong liquor counts differently

Ibid. footnote - "it was all blamed on people from another world"
- For some reason, UFOs are sometimes blamed for mysterious
mutilations of cattle.

314 - "the local town of Ham-on-Koom" - Given that "ham"
means "town" and "koom" is already (see note for _Soul Music_
page 330) established as being a play on the Welsh "cwm",
"valley", we have here a town near a valley whose name means
"town on valley".

317 - "Campfires from the valley...." - A few ways to go here.
On the one hand, it might be a reference to the civilian observers who
watched the Battle of Bull Run (1861) as if it were an afternoon's
entertainment; or on the other, to the early arrivals at CCDE looking
for a good spot; or on the other other hand, it could be just taken at
face value.

318 - "Only we do it with people dressing up...." - Recall the
Thud club where Vimes meets Mr. Shine earlier, and also that Nobby is a
member of the Peeled Nuts; see annotation for page 68 of _Feet of
Clay_.

327 - "It had been like that little voice that whispers
'Jump'" - See note for page 102 regarding _Small Gods_.

328 - "HAS IT NEVER STRUCK YOU..." - Death is speaking in
meta-references here, almost hinting that he knows Vimes is a character
in a book. Also, the fact that Death appears here, but *not* in the
opening passage on page 1, is a metareferential clue: Hamcrusher must
already be dead; compare the opening appearance of Death in other Watch
novels.

354 - "he spoke fluent Chicken" - possibly a reference to the
surreal webcomic _The Parking Lot Is Full_, which featured one strip in
which civilization is ended by a linguist who invents a language called
"Chicken".

354 - "The first thyng Tak did, he wroten hymself...." - The
archaic spelling and verb endings draw on Middle English.

355 - "Then Tak looked upon the stone...." - This passage of
arcana parallels the hidden arcana of _The Da Vinci Code_. See note for
page 40.

359 - "It would be a lot simpler...if this was a story." - See
note for page 328.

361 - "The carvings on Diamond" - made with, er, what?

367 - "Sixty men...." - A current complement of less than 180,
then. Of course, some of these new recruits will be behind desks rather
than on the street.
Sorcha
2005-10-09 21:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
4 - "Mr., er, Fizz" - first mentioned in _Monstrous Regiment_
as the Ankh Morpork Times' cartoonist.
5 - "Methodia Rascal" - What might be the origin of this name?
There was some discussion of this subject on abp - have a look at the
sub-thread starting with Message-ID: <MPG.1dafc983780c577a9896d8
@news.iol.ie>.

I'd also add this one for p. 14:
'...at the studio of Sir Joshua at eleven sharp...'
This sounds suspiciously like the Discworld equivalent of Sir Joshua
Reynolds, portrait painter to the British nobility during the
eighteenth century. Apart from occasional parodies and cartoons, he
was best known for exactly the type of portrait that Vimes later
grumbles about. There are some examples at
<http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ArtistWorks?cgroupid=999999961
&artistid=444&page=1>, particularly Lady Bampfylde and the
Marlborough family scene.

And on the appearance of Sir Reynold Stitched and the burglar reah
(p. 41+), I have to say, having had some dealings with the art world
in my time, that this is a spot-on caricature of a certain kind of
terribly old school gallery curator, regardless of nationality
(although the 'upper class twit' diction tends to travel quite well,
I find).
Post by e***@gmail.com
34 - "since his lordship held Views" - Compare Lord
Vetinari's attitude toward mimes; while generally not prone to
directly interfere in the workings of the city, he takes an active hand
in regulating its artistic life.
Considering the fact that Ankh-Morpork seems to have somehow evolve
post-modern art within a roughly late eighteenth century society and
his stated attitude to mimes, I'm not in the slightest bit surprised
at this!
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid.- "fifty feet long" - and as a consequence about sixteen
feet in diameter. A painting in the round is properly termed a
"cyclorama" and the technique was invented in 1767 by Irish painter
Robert Barker; one of the most notable cycloramas is one by Paul D.
Philippoteaux depicting the Battle of Gettysburg, and another depicts
Waterloo. Most cycloramas are considerably greater in circumference
than "The Battle of Koom Valley".
36 - "Don't Talk to Me About Mondays" - Possibly a collision
of Garfield the Cat's "I hate Mondays" (or the Boomtown Rats'
"I Don't Like Mondays") and Marvin the Paranoid Android's
"Life? Don't talk to me about life."
Daniellarina Pouter has distinct shades of Tracy Emin going on...
See 'My Bed' and 'Everyone I Have Ever Slept With' for comparison.
<Loading Image...>
<Loading Image...>
The irony, of course, is that Vetinari's response of nailing her to
her work seems to have spawned the developing of a budding
performance art scene, which I doubt he'd be all that keen on.
Post by e***@gmail.com
39 - "No urns" - A quick browse through several important
Odalisques haven't found any with urns, although one does appear in
Michaelangelo's "The Drunkenness of Noah".
I just wanted to comment that this entire section was *hysterical*.
Colon's Man-in-the-Street Theory of Art Classification deserves a
medal :>
Post by e***@gmail.com
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Botticelli has only two 'I's, though. Can't be *that* amazing...
The whole I's discussion is referring to the domination of Italian
Renaissance art in the type of 'large, pink ladies' representational
art that Vetinari obviously finds acceptable and that most average
punters feel safe as identifying as 'real art, not all this modern
muck they try to pass off as art nowadays'. As well, as Botticelli,
it would include people like Correggio, Donatello, Masaccio,
Michelangelo, Pisano, Raphael, Tintoretto, Titian and of course, the
one and only da Vinci, who has already appeared in the form of
Leonard da Quirm and a version of _The Da Vinci Code_.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "The Koom Valley Codex" - Dan Browne's _The Da Vinci
Code_, despite (or perhaps because of) being pseudomystical drivel, was
a world-wide bestseller in 2003 and quickly inspired a film. The book,
a highly sensationalistic work concerning supposed hidden knowledge in
the Roman Catholic church regarding the true nature of the
Resurrection, involves the murder of someone aware of this knowledge in
order to keep it hidden, along with keys hidden in Da Vinci paintings.
p. 68
That family portrait again, with the rolling acres of Crundells in
the background, very similar in style to eighteenth century portraits
of the English gentry. There are a thousand examples hanging in
stately homes across the country, but one example, by Gainsborough
this time is Mr. and Mrs. Andrews of Suffolk, has a rather
appropriate discussion :
<http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-
bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=ng6301>
Post by e***@gmail.com
166 footnote - "Empirical Crescent...all this by accident." -
It is notable that B.S. Johnson's works, which started out as merely
inept in earlier books, have developed into quasi-magical perversions
of the very fabric of space and time. Compare also Robert Heinlein's
1941 short story "-And He Built A Crooked House-".
I would have thought that the obvious annotation here would be to the
Royal Crescent in Bath and various other eighteenth century Neo-
Classical crescents scattered across the British Isles.

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
g***@tpg.com.au
2005-10-10 09:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Did anyone else get the impression that at a couple of points in the book,
Terry was mentioning things purely for the sake of pointing out that yes,
he hadn't forgotten the Discworld's little oddities, and all you pedants
can put a sock in it, so there?

Some examples:

References to the Discworld's speeds of sound and light
Deliberate mention of "24/8" - eight days in a DW week
Being able to see Cori Celesti


There was also the rather subtle pun of the appearance of the fifth horse.
Vimes hadn't wanted the wizards to provide anything weird-looking to
travel in; he'd just, in effect, asked for more Horsepower...


-SteveD
Vincent Oberheim
2005-10-10 10:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
4 - "Mr., er, Fizz" - first mentioned in _Monstrous Regiment_
as the Ankh Morpork Times' cartoonist.
5 - "Methodia Rascal" - What might be the origin of this name?
I'm not sure about the name, but Googling for 'battle' and 'painting' brings
up these two example of highly detailed depictions of battles.
Loading Image...
http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/mcardle/paintings/sanjac.html

Vincent
___________________
English: Eggs is eggs.
French: An oeuf is an oeuf.
German: An ei for an ei.
Jessie
2005-10-10 16:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcha
'...at the studio of Sir Joshua at eleven sharp...'
This sounds suspiciously like the Discworld equivalent of Sir Joshua
Reynolds, portrait painter to the British nobility during the
eighteenth century. Apart from occasional parodies and cartoons, he
was best known for exactly the type of portrait that Vimes later
grumbles about. There are some examples at
<http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ArtistWorks?cgroupid=999999961
&artistid=444&page=1>, particularly Lady Bampfylde and the
Marlborough family scene.
Ahh, yes, could be. :)

However, I assumed that it was the studio belonging to Sir Joshua
Ramkin, Sybil's father - or at least a male relative of hers. (He's
mentioned in Nanny Ogg's cookbook and somewhere else, I think.) Sybil
mentions that family portraits are a Ramkin family tradition, so,
knowing how rich the Ramkins are, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that
they have their own studio.
Sorcha
2005-10-12 15:57:58 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
***@gmail.com said...
Spoiler space re-inserted to keep general blood-pressure down...
Spoilers for Thud!
Post by Jessie
Post by e***@gmail.com
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
and
another
one
here!
'...at the studio of Sir Joshua at eleven sharp...'
This sounds suspiciously like the Discworld equivalent of Sir Joshua
Reynolds, portrait painter to the British nobility during the
eighteenth century. Apart from occasional parodies and cartoons, he
was best known for exactly the type of portrait that Vimes later
grumbles about. There are some examples at
<http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ArtistWorks?cgroupid=999999961
&artistid=444&page=1>, particularly Lady Bampfylde and the
Marlborough family scene.
Ahh, yes, could be. :)
However, I assumed that it was the studio belonging to Sir Joshua
Ramkin, Sybil's father - or at least a male relative of hers. (He's
mentioned in Nanny Ogg's cookbook and somewhere else, I think.) Sybil
mentions that family portraits are a Ramkin family tradition, so,
knowing how rich the Ramkins are, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that
they have their own studio.
Well, family portraits are certainly mentioned as a family tradition,
but if it's a family tradition modelled along the lines of 18th
century European nobility, then the normal mode of practice would be
for the artist to work in their own studio, rather than one owned by
a patron.

An individual family wouldn't keep a professional portrait painter in
work, even if there was an *awful* lot of them and they all wanted
their portrait painted every couple of years. The general practice
would be to have independent artists like Reynolds and Gainsborough,
who would have their own studio set-up and a range of clients would
then come for sittings (the rest of the time being taken up by
painting clothes and backgrounds, etc.) British aristocrats, at
least, seem to have had their portrait painted about every ten years
or so and with only Sybil and her parents (and no other relatives in
evidence) around, there wouldn't be much point, really.

I'm curious as to where you saw the reference to Sybil's father as
Sir Joshua? I've had a look at Nanny Ogg's Cookbook and there is no
mention of him in Sybil's recipe. I didn't think he had ever
appeared, either - the scene in Night Watch is just Sybil and the
butler in the house, if I remember correctly.

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
Jessie
2005-10-13 20:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcha
Well, family portraits are certainly mentioned as a family tradition,
but if it's a family tradition modelled along the lines of 18th
century European nobility, then the normal mode of practice would be
for the artist to work in their own studio, rather than one owned by
a patron.
An individual family wouldn't keep a professional portrait painter in
work, even if there was an *awful* lot of them and they all wanted
their portrait painted every couple of years. The general practice
would be to have independent artists like Reynolds and Gainsborough,
who would have their own studio set-up and a range of clients would
then come for sittings (the rest of the time being taken up by
painting clothes and backgrounds, etc.) British aristocrats, at
least, seem to have had their portrait painted about every ten years
or so and with only Sybil and her parents (and no other relatives in
evidence) around, there wouldn't be much point, really.
Well, I don't pretend to know much about 18th Century European
nobility. :) I'm sure you're correct.
Post by Sorcha
I'm curious as to where you saw the reference to Sybil's father as
Sir Joshua? I've had a look at Nanny Ogg's Cookbook and there is no
mention of him in Sybil's recipe. I didn't think he had ever
appeared, either - the scene in Night Watch is just Sybil and the
butler in the house, if I remember correctly.
Nope, Sybil's father doesn't appear in Night Watch (though Vimes does
note that he was probably alive during the events of the novel).
Anyway, nowhere is it explicitly mentioned that Sir Joshua Ramkin is
Sybil's father... but I'm certain that there is a recipe in Nanny Ogg's
Cookbook mentioning a Sir Joshua Ramkin (I don't own the book myself,
otherwise I'd look it up - the mention of his name isn't in Sybil's
recipe, by the way, it's in another one). I think it's safe to assume
that he is a relative of Sybil's - I just assume he's her father,
although he could be any male relative of hers, really.
Sorcha
2005-10-15 09:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Spoiler space re-inserted again (it might be an idea to leave in the
spoiler space and the [A] tag in the Subject header, Jess?)
Post by Jessie
Post by e***@gmail.com
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
and
another
one
here!
I'm curious as to where you saw the reference to Sybil's father as
Sir Joshua? I've had a look at Nanny Ogg's Cookbook and there is no
mention of him in Sybil's recipe. I didn't think he had ever
appeared, either - the scene in Night Watch is just Sybil and the
butler in the house, if I remember correctly.
Nope, Sybil's father doesn't appear in Night Watch (though Vimes does
note that he was probably alive during the events of the novel).
Anyway, nowhere is it explicitly mentioned that Sir Joshua Ramkin is
Sybil's father... but I'm certain that there is a recipe in Nanny Ogg's
Cookbook mentioning a Sir Joshua Ramkin (I don't own the book myself,
otherwise I'd look it up - the mention of his name isn't in Sybil's
recipe, by the way, it's in another one). I think it's safe to assume
that he is a relative of Sybil's - I just assume he's her father,
although he could be any male relative of hers, really.
You're absolutely right - I just checked and his name appears in the
recipe for Bloody Stupid Johnson's Individual Fruit Pie, page 66. I
seem to remember that Sybil mentions at some point that BS Johnson
was a lot less trouble after her father had him shot, which would tie
into that rather nicely.

I just checked and it's actually her *grandfather* that shot him
'before he could do any real damage', but it doesn't actually name
him. Jingo, page 151, though.

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
Alister
2005-10-09 22:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
9 - "Do you know Mr. John Smith?" - the popular British
character of the Doctor in _Dr. Who_ occasionally goes by "Doctor
John Smith", and has worn colourful vests in many of his
incarnations. Compare also the vampires playing at being everyday
humans in _Carpe Jugulum_.
I doubt that Pterry is being so precise. "John Smith" is a well known
catch-all pseudonym for any male wishing to be inconspicuous.
(As are Fred Bloggs, A.N. Other etc)
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "You're not a vampire, Doreen!..." - compare the
inherited vampire couple in _Moving Pictures_.
Same person AFAIK.
Post by e***@gmail.com
66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch increases
parallels between Dwarfish culture in Ankh-Morpork and Arabic culture
in Europe.
I always thought Dwarfs = North/Middle Europeans possibly Germanic.
Arabian culture is surely Klatchian?
Post by e***@gmail.com
85 - "If you're not an apple, you're a banana..." - Apples
and bananas appear throughout the book. I'm still trying to figure
out if this is a legitimate metaphor for the division of one society
into two different but not intrinsically opposed groups, or just a red
herring.
Everyone knows Bananananas are fish - just like red herrings. ;-)
Post by e***@gmail.com
155 - "numknuts" - akin, of course, to nunchaku (popularly
nunchucks), a Chinese flail consisting of two wooden shafts connected
by a chain or cord.
And also, of course, the likely outcome of their use!!

Alastair.
Geoff Field
2005-10-10 13:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alister
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
[snip]
Post by Alister
Post by e***@gmail.com
155 - "numknuts" - akin, of course, to nunchaku (popularly
nunchucks), a Chinese flail consisting of two wooden shafts connected
by a chain or cord.
And also, of course, the likely outcome of their use!!
Minor pedant point - they're actually Japanese, rather than Chinese.
It might not matter to you, but it certainly did to my Chinese Kung-Fu
instructors many years ago. They taught weapons, but refused to even
discuss the Japanese ones.

And, of course, if you've ever seen "They Call Me Bruce", you'll know
that they're actually chopsticks for big eaters...

Sorry, they're for husking corn.

Similarly, Tonfa (after which police batons are modelled) were handles
for millstones.

Back in the day, Japanese peasants weren't allowed to have weapons,
but they were allowed all sorts of agricultural implements...

Geoff
--
Geoff Field
Professional Geek,
Amateur Stage-Levelling Gauge
e***@gmail.com
2005-10-10 17:18:08 UTC
Permalink
I thought so too, but the source I had on them said Chinese.
Post by Geoff Field
Minor pedant point - they're actually Japanese, rather than Chinese.
It might not matter to you, but it certainly did to my Chinese Kung-Fu
instructors many years ago. They taught weapons, but refused to even
discuss the Japanese ones.
--
Geoff Field
Professional Geek,
Amateur Stage-Levelling Gauge
Ross
2005-10-10 19:53:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:54:03 +1000, Geoff Field wrote in
Post by Geoff Field
Back in the day, Japanese peasants weren't allowed to have weapons,
but they were allowed all sorts of agricultural implements...
Which is, as we al know, how many of the most "interesting" weapons
came into being. Billhooks, anyone?


Apropos of nothing much, I had to buy a stop-cock key this weekend
(fifteen quid, I nearly fainted!). Wandering home from B&Q with it, it
occurred to me that it would probably be quite effective for dealing
with an armoured horse-rider: the handle end has a nice punch which I
reckon would quite effectively hook into any gaps in the armour,
enabling the wielder to pull said horseman to the ground, and the key
end has a nice large lump of metal which would give the horseman a
lovely headache at the least.

Of course, it's not a weapon at all, noooo...
--
Ross

Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.
John Ewing
2005-10-09 22:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
[snip]
Post by e***@gmail.com
23 - "The parades were okay" - in Northern Ireland,
nationalistic parades by both sides were once quite common both as a
display of pride and as a means of intimidation.
To be pedantic, most of the parades are by the unionists, not the
nationalists.
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." - Compare
"borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as described in
_Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty *might* just
barely weigh 40 pounds.
This puzzles me - all previous vampires have turned from human form
into _one_ bat, AFAIR.

John
--
John Ewing
Glaschu / Glasgow
Alba / Scotland
Sorcha
2005-10-10 09:10:53 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.demon.co.uk>, ***@gelsalba.co.uk
said...
Post by John Ewing
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
[snip]
Post by e***@gmail.com
23 - "The parades were okay" - in Northern Ireland,
nationalistic parades by both sides were once quite common both as a
display of pride and as a means of intimidation.
To be pedantic, most of the parades are by the unionists, not the
nationalists.
Indeed, the vast majority according to
<http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/parade/chpa1.htm> are associated with
the Orange Order. I can find information about only two nationalist
ones - St. Patrick's Day and the Ancient Order of Hibernians on the
15th of August. In comparison, there seem to be approx. 43 Orange-
associated parades during the main marching season (Easter Monday the
the end of September).

And despite ceasefires, etc., they are most definitely not 'once
quite common', but still a common feature of NI, albeit requiring the
say-so of the Parades Commission to go ahead.
Post by John Ewing
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." - Compare
"borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as described in
_Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty *might* just
barely weigh 40 pounds.
This puzzles me - all previous vampires have turned from human form
into _one_ bat, AFAIR.
All previous vampires have been able to rematerialise their clothes,
too, hmm?

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
Rhiannon Sands
2005-10-10 14:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcha
said...
Post by John Ewing
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
[snip]
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." - Compare
"borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as described in
_Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty *might* just
barely weigh 40 pounds.
This puzzles me - all previous vampires have turned from human form
into _one_ bat, AFAIR.
All previous vampires have been able to rematerialise their clothes,
too, hmm?
Given how the Discworld seems to work. Is it possible that Sally has heard
the theory of how it shouldn't be possible to transform all her mass like
that. While all the other vampires are going on the old Narrativium
version?

IYSWIM?
--
Rhiannon S
If you're going to do something stupid, at least do it with style!
redtiger
2005-10-19 02:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhiannon Sands
Post by Sorcha
said...
Post by John Ewing
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
[snip]
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." - Compare
"borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as described in
_Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty *might* just
barely weigh 40 pounds.
This puzzles me - all previous vampires have turned from human form
into _one_ bat, AFAIR.
All previous vampires have been able to rematerialise their clothes,
too, hmm?
Given how the Discworld seems to work. Is it possible that Sally has heard
the theory of how it shouldn't be possible to transform all her mass like
that. While all the other vampires are going on the old Narrativium
version?
IYSWIM?
I haven't read the entire thread yet so apologies if this is answered
elsewhere. Sally is a Black Ribboner. She states (somewhere) that because
she no longer drinks blood it is far more difficult for her to change into
one bat because of the inherent mass difference. She therefore has to change
into many bats to reduce said difference. From the above maths I assume she
still has enough power to do away with some of the mass.

Anthony
--
I'm not bad.
I'm fairly new to mild naughtiness.
- Jeff, Coupling.
Thalia
2005-10-10 22:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
[snip]
Post by e***@gmail.com
23 - "The parades were okay" - in Northern Ireland,
nationalistic parades by both sides were once quite common both as a
display of pride and as a means of intimidation.
To be pedantic, most of the parades are by the unionists, not the
nationalists.
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." - Compare
"borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as described in
_Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty *might* just
barely weigh 40 pounds.
This puzzles me - all previous vampires have turned from human form
into _one_ bat, AFAIR.
John
IIRC, Windle Poons discovered that "Arthur as a bat was surprisingly heavy"
Jenny Delaney
2005-10-09 22:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
11 - "for thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances?" - From
this, we can conclude that it is possible to live a reasonably
middle-class lifestyle on thirty-eight $AM a month.
Ibid. - "You're not a vampire, Doreen!..." - compare the
inherited vampire couple in _Moving Pictures_.
It's actually Reaper Man that has Doreen and her husband at the Fresh
Start Club.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid - "pole-dancing" - the mazurka, a lively dance originating
in the Masurian Lakes region of northeastern Poland and performed in
3/4 time.
Not to mention the fact that pole dancing is, of course, a speciality of
strip clubs (and is both very tricky to do well - hence Tawnee's pride
in her ability to do the Triple Corkscrew - and rather painful for the
dancer's hands and thighs!)
Post by e***@gmail.com
134 - "Lips that touch Ichor shall never touch Mine" - The
temperance anthem "lips that touch wine shall never touch mine". I
have no idea where it comes from. Recall that Vimes is a recovering
alcoholic, and contrast his attitude toward the Black Ribboners - he
thinks a word against the movement, no matter what he feels about
vampires in general - with Angua's.
I thought it was "lips that touch liquor shall never touch mine"?
Apparently written by GW Young.
Post by e***@gmail.com
166 footnote - "Empirical Crescent...all this by accident." -
It is notable that B.S. Johnson's works, which started out as merely
inept in earlier books, have developed into quasi-magical perversions
of the very fabric of space and time. Compare also Robert Heinlein's
1941 short story "-And He Built A Crooked House-".
Sorcha's already pointed out the analogy with places such as the Royal
Crescent in Bath - I'll add in that they're notoriously badly built,
since Georgian terraces usually didn't have proper foundations.
Post by e***@gmail.com
171 - "A paying audience?" - Pterry may, in this passage, be
playing with the slash fiction community reading this book.
Mud wrestling is a more likely annotation in this case.
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
Also, the reference to cake mix is probably a reference to Betty Crocker
- less well known in the UK.
Post by e***@gmail.com
206 - "No. 3 Tenth Egg Street" - Tenth Egg Street is previously
referred to as the home base of Willikins's boyhood street gang.
It's where the troll gang who are too thick to come up with a nickname
are based.
Post by e***@gmail.com
225 - "in accordance with some butlerian duty" - Possibly an
oblique reference to the "Butlerian jihad" against sentient
machines in Frank Herbert's _Dune_ series.
Although the unflappability of a good butler is legendary - there's a
story from the Irish war of independence which involved a very po-faced
butler saying "and who shall I say called?" to the IRA as they arrived
to burn down the house where he worked. And Willikins is a very good
butler indeed.

Jenny
Pussinspooks
2005-10-09 22:38:09 UTC
Permalink
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
______________
Wasn't Nobby himself once a somewhat exotic dancer called 'Beti'?
Stacie Hanes
2005-10-09 22:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
.
.
.Minor spoiler for Jingo
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I think "Beti" only threatened to dance.
Post by e***@gmail.com
______________
Wasn't Nobby himself once a somewhat exotic dancer called 'Beti'?
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Pussinspooks
2005-10-11 18:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Someone earlier wrote: (sorry, losing track of attribs)
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
.
.
.Minor spoiler for Jingo
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Post by e***@gmail.com
______________
Wasn't Nobby himself once a somewhat exotic dancer called 'Beti'?
.
I think "Beti" only threatened to dance.
--------------------------------
Yes, you are quite right, thoguh Vetinary introduced him as an exotic
dancer. Mind you, Nobby is a member of that folk dancing club, or at
least he was, so maybe I can claim that technically he is a 'dancer' at
all times and being dressed exotically makes him an exotic one? No? Oh
well :-/
PleegWat
2005-10-11 20:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pussinspooks
Someone earlier wrote: (sorry, losing track of attribs)
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
.
.
.Minor spoiler for Jingo
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Post by e***@gmail.com
______________
Wasn't Nobby himself once a somewhat exotic dancer called 'Beti'?
.
I think "Beti" only threatened to dance.
--------------------------------
Yes, you are quite right, thoguh Vetinary introduced him as an exotic
dancer. Mind you, Nobby is a member of that folk dancing club, or at
least he was, so maybe I can claim that technically he is a 'dancer' at
all times and being dressed exotically makes him an exotic one? No? Oh
well :-/
AM must be pretty exotic over in Klatch.
--
PleegWat
Remove caps to reply
David Cherry
2005-10-11 22:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pussinspooks
Someone earlier wrote: (sorry, losing track of attribs)
Post by Stacie Hanes
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
.
.
.Minor spoiler for Jingo
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Post by e***@gmail.com
______________
Wasn't Nobby himself once a somewhat exotic dancer called 'Beti'?
.
I think "Beti" only threatened to dance.
--------------------------------
Yes, you are quite right, thoguh Vetinary introduced him as an exotic
dancer. Mind you, Nobby is a member of that folk dancing club, or at
least he was, so maybe I can claim that technically he is a 'dancer' at
all times and being dressed exotically makes him an exotic one? No? Oh
well :-/
And said "Start paying or she dances"
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-09 22:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
Ibid. - "Grag Hamcrusher" - My first guess for the origin of
this name is that, like Goodmountain in _The Truth_, Hamcrusher's
name may be a translation of the name of some famous demagogue from
Earth history. The best guess I have so far is "Ham" -> German
"Schenk" -> "Schinklgruber", a purported real name for Adolf
Hitler, but this seems a stretch.
Well, crushing ham is like whopping ass too, only more so.
Post by e***@gmail.com
20 - "Sarsaparilla" - An American soft drink brewed in part
from a bitter aromatic plant of the same name (genus Smilax).
ITYM root beer, which indeed is brewed with sarsaparilla. There's also
Moxie, which was the favourite of president Teddy Roosevelt. Its taste
can best be described as a mix between ginger ale and diesel oil, which
is probably why it now can't easily be found outside of New England.
Post by e***@gmail.com
22 - "Gods damn the wretched place" - Blatant foreshadowing.
Ibid - "Beware of the troll...." - This passage, although not
an actual quotation, follows the style of Adolf Hitler's _Mein
Kampf_.
Beware the greek (when bearing gifts).
Or the modern equivalent: Beware the geek (when bearing gifs).
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid - "pole-dancing" - the mazurka, a lively dance originating
in the Masurian Lakes region of northeastern Poland and performed in
3/4 time.
Um, pole dancing is a rather common phenomenon in strip joints. And no,
I don't mean mazurka...
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid.- "fifty feet long" - and as a consequence about sixteen
feet in diameter. A painting in the round is properly termed a
"cyclorama" and the technique was invented in 1767 by Irish painter
Robert Barker; one of the most notable cycloramas is one by Paul D.
Philippoteaux depicting the Battle of Gettysburg, and another depicts
Waterloo. Most cycloramas are considerably greater in circumference
than "The Battle of Koom Valley".
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I really
fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural without
breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a carpet either.
Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a painting on an
immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Post by e***@gmail.com
66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch increases
parallels between Dwarfish culture in Ankh-Morpork and Arabic culture
in Europe.
I'd say Scandinavian culture, not Arabic. The Arabs are already
associated with Klatch, and Scandinavians with Dwarfs (thus names like
Bjorn). Why would they be good at making coffee? Because they drink a
LOT more coffee than any others, that's why.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_cof_con
http://www.coffeeresearch.org/market/consumption.htm

Most non-Scandinavians also think of Gevalia as good coffee.
Post by e***@gmail.com
198 - "All dem dancin' teef!" - This is a reference to
something, but I don't remember what and most of my books are still
in America. Help?
A rather famous Gterry animation.
Post by e***@gmail.com
229 - "two iron boots were cooling from white heat in a puddle of
molten sand." - There's a Bond film where an evil female villain
is killed with some kind of projectile explosive, leaving only a pair
of smoking high heels, but I can't remember the details.
It's a common cartoon device.
Post by e***@gmail.com
254 - "Thank God It's Open" - TGIO refers to the American
chain "T.G.I. Friday's", known as a chain of family-dining
restaurants in the USA
Really? It's known as a meat market around here (CT), with booze being
the main feature.
Post by e***@gmail.com
297 - "Something happens at thirteen miles an hour." - Possibly
a reference to the 88 miles an hour of "Back to the Future"; see
annotations for _Soul Music_.
Or rather the Discworld equivalent of the sound barrier.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "many had ever been found again" -The first American
printing contains a number of typographical errors, especially near
the end.
Nothing is as bad as the ebook, though. I'm still waiting for word that
the typesetter has committed seppuku.
Post by e***@gmail.com
305 - "Perhaps sound was unable to keep up." - The speed of
sound in normal air is around 750 miles an hour.
The Discworld is different -- see above.
Post by e***@gmail.com
312 - "The landscape ahead was strangely bluish..." - Compare
the change in colors seen in similar circumstances in _Thief of Time_,
and also recall the "slow light" of the Discworld.
Doppler effect on light, with a noticable redshift/blueshift.


Regards,
--
*Art
Sorcha
2005-10-10 09:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
Ibid.- "fifty feet long" - and as a consequence about sixteen
feet in diameter. A painting in the round is properly termed a
"cyclorama" and the technique was invented in 1767 by Irish painter
Robert Barker; one of the most notable cycloramas is one by Paul D.
Philippoteaux depicting the Battle of Gettysburg, and another depicts
Waterloo. Most cycloramas are considerably greater in circumference
than "The Battle of Koom Valley".
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I really
fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural without
breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a carpet either.
Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a painting on an
immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting or
canvas...

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-11 03:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting or
canvas...
In my version, Sir Reynold refers to it as a mural:
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."

This doesn't make much sense to me.

Regards,
--
*Art
David Cherry
2005-10-11 07:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting or
canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."
This doesn't make much sense to me.
MURAL - A painting executed directly on a wall or ceiling or done on a
portable panel that is destined for a wall or architectural setting
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-11 12:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cherry
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins
1st Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1
(alk. paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting
or canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."
This doesn't make much sense to me.
MURAL - A painting executed directly on a wall or ceiling or done on a
portable panel that is destined for a wall or architectural setting
Quote source, please. I have:

mu·ral
n (plural mu·rals)
painting painting (sic) on wall: a usually large picture painted
directly onto an interior or exterior wall
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2004. © 1993-2003 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.

Mural
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A mural is a painting on a wall, ceiling, or other large permanent
surface. [...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mural

At least there seems to be /some/ sources that equate a mural with a
painting on an immobile surface (which theft would be the last of your
concerns), so I doubt I'm the only one who got confused.

Regards,
--
*Art
David Cherry
2005-10-11 12:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by David Cherry
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins
1st Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1
(alk. paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting
or canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."
This doesn't make much sense to me.
MURAL - A painting executed directly on a wall or ceiling or done on a
portable panel that is destined for a wall or architectural setting
Source of quote is from http://cemaweb.library.ucsb.edu/taxonomy.html
and from http://www.patronsartgallery.com/glossary.htm

"Mural: A continuous painting which is designed to fill a wall or other
architectural area."
Post by Arthur Hagen
mu·ral
n (plural mu·rals)
painting painting (sic) on wall: a usually large picture painted
directly onto an interior or exterior wall
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2004. © 1993-2003 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
Mural
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A mural is a painting on a wall, ceiling, or other large permanent
surface. [...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mural
At least there seems to be /some/ sources that equate a mural with a
painting on an immobile surface (which theft would be the last of your
concerns), so I doubt I'm the only one who got confused.
Regards,
--
*Art
Sorcha
2005-10-12 15:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting or
canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."
Ah, okay, in mine (Transworld UK edition, p43) it says 'The canvas is
one of the most recognizable paintings..." I have a feeling that this
may be an editing/proofreading whatsit in the US edition, maybe?

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-12 17:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins
1st Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1
(alk. paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting
or canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."
Ah, okay, in mine (Transworld UK edition, p43) it says 'The canvas is
one of the most recognizable paintings..." I have a feeling that this
may be an editing/proofreading whatsit in the US edition, maybe?
Argh, *yet* another one? Changing "going spare" to "going postal"
wasn't enough, but now canvas is changed to mural just to cause
confusion?
--
*Art
Dom
2005-10-12 17:55:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins
1st Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1
(alk. paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting
or canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."
Ah, okay, in mine (Transworld UK edition, p43) it says 'The canvas is
one of the most recognizable paintings..." I have a feeling that this
may be an editing/proofreading whatsit in the US edition, maybe?
Argh, *yet* another one? Changing "going spare" to "going postal"
wasn't enough, but now canvas is changed to mural just to cause
confusion?
The UK version has "The canvas is..." and "..encircled by the mural"
on the same page.

I'm confused now.
--
Dom
afpSlave to CCA
Steve Rogers
2005-10-12 18:44:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dom
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
In article
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
In article
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the
US-published Harper-Collins 1st Edition,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred
to as a mural. I really fail to see how they
could flatten out a cylindrical mural without
breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it
up like a carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean
the same thing everywhere -- a painting on an
immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the
name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art
connoisseur, right? Note that Sir Reynold never
refers to it as such, only as painting or
canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable
paintings..." and "... /hwolly/ encircled by the
mural ..."
Ah, okay, in mine (Transworld UK edition, p43) it
says 'The canvas is one of the most recognizable
paintings..." I have a feeling that this may be an
editing/proofreading whatsit in the US edition,
maybe?
Argh, *yet* another one? Changing "going spare" to
"going postal" wasn't enough, but now canvas is changed
to mural just to cause confusion?
The UK version has "The canvas is..." and "..encircled by
the mural" on the same page.
I'm confused now.
A bit more confusion then follows:-

Mural adj. of, resembling, or applied to a wall
Mural n. a mural work of art (e.g. a painting)

from my Longman dictionary

Which can be taken to mean that a mural can be on a canvas and not need be
painted direct on a wall just that the canvas is then placed so as to
resemble or act as a wall - film set background hordings or theatre backdrop
curtains methinks can be called murals.

Steve
TheManWhoKnowsLittle
2005-10-13 08:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dom
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins
1st Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1
(alk. paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred to as a mural. I
really fail to see how they could flatten out a cylindrical mural
without breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it up like a
carpet either. Or doesn't mural mean the same thing everywhere -- a
painting on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted art connoisseur, right?
Note that Sir Reynold never refers to it as such, only as painting
or canvas...
"The mural is one of the most recognizable paintings..." and "...
/hwolly/ encircled by the mural ..."
Ah, okay, in mine (Transworld UK edition, p43) it says 'The canvas is
one of the most recognizable paintings..." I have a feeling that this
may be an editing/proofreading whatsit in the US edition, maybe?
Argh, *yet* another one? Changing "going spare" to "going postal"
wasn't enough, but now canvas is changed to mural just to cause
confusion?
The UK version has "The canvas is..." and "..encircled by the mural"
on the same page.
I'm confused now.
Possibly, and I may be making this up (see name), it is referred to as a
canvas at present because it is, and possibly it's referred to a mural
becuase when it encircles the viewer it will be acting as a wall. The
context is that a room is being specially built for it.

Possibly.

Or maybe not.
--
*****************************************************************
The more I learn, the more I realise there is that I don't know.
So feel free to enlighten me.
*****************************************************************
emails can be sent to me at the mortgage man 1980 at hotmail dot com.
Steve Rogers
2005-10-13 09:18:52 UTC
Permalink
"TheManWhoKnowsLittle"
Post by TheManWhoKnowsLittle
Post by Dom
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
In article
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Sorcha
In article
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the
US-published Harper-Collins 1st Edition,
978-0-06-081522-6. and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
My problem is that it's consistently referred
to as a mural. I really fail to see how they
could flatten out a cylindrical mural without
breaking it, or cutting it out and rolling it
up like a carpet either. Or doesn't mural
mean the same thing everywhere -- a painting
on an immobile surface (usually a wall, thus
the name)?
Referred to as a muriel by Fred Colon, noted
art connoisseur, right? Note that Sir Reynold
never refers to it as such, only as painting or
canvas...
In my version, Sir Reynold refers to it as a
mural: "The mural is one of the most recognizable
paintings..." and "... /hwolly/ encircled by the
mural ..."
Ah, okay, in mine (Transworld UK edition, p43) it
says 'The canvas is one of the most recognizable
paintings..." I have a feeling that this may be an
editing/proofreading whatsit in the US edition,
maybe?
Argh, *yet* another one? Changing "going spare" to
"going postal" wasn't enough, but now canvas is
changed to mural just to cause confusion?
The UK version has "The canvas is..." and "..encircled
by the mural" on the same page.
I'm confused now.
Possibly, and I may be making this up (see name), it is
referred to as a canvas at present because it is, and
possibly it's referred to a mural becuase when it
encircles the viewer it will be acting as a wall. The
context is that a room is being specially built for it.
Possibly.
Or maybe not.
Well my dictionary would tend to agree with you on that as would my
undersatnding being an ex-painter etc.

Steve
RuneMaster
2005-10-09 23:03:32 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Oct 2005 13:20:46 -0700, <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<Excised>
Post by e***@gmail.com
17 - "Quid custodiet ipsos custodes?" - Juvenal, "Satires".
"Who shall guard the guardsmen?" but often translated as "who
watches the watchers?" either of which fits in an AM City Watch
context. The line's original contexts relates to locking up one's
wife in order to prevent her from cheating, followed by the fear that
she may be seduced by the guard watching her.
The Latin is a bit more subtle/complex than that. "Quid custodiet
custodes" by itself would mean just "who will watch the watchers?" The
addition of the reflexive word "ipsos" changes the meaning to "Who will
watch the selfsame watchers", i.e. who, being a guardian (implied: for
other people/property etc.), can properly be tasked to guard themselves?

The idea that any security force needs its own watchers is (in my opinion)
well developed in Harry Harrison's novel "Rebel in Time", but also appears
in Rob Heinlein's works and I assume, many others. ITV - I seem to recall,
did a drama series on the Police Investegation section with Siobhan
Redmond in Between the Lines which had a QCIC plotline.
--
Use common sense to reply

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are
conservative"
John Stuart Mill, English economist & philosopher, 1809 - 1873
flobert
2005-10-10 00:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
Some that have been mentioned in other threads, but i've left some
comments on others.
Post by e***@gmail.com
2 - "The steel was a lot better than the steel you got today" -
Dwarves make the best steel (see later at the well). Is the old steel
really better, or is Vimes seeing through rose-colored glasses, as he
will several times in this novel?
To many, modern mass produced steel is inferior in quality to the hand
crafcted and cared for steel of ages past, especially when it comes to
blades. Ancient japanese swords for isntance.
Post by e***@gmail.com
31 - "Two sequins and a bootlace" - In contrast to its other
virtues, Ankh-Morpork's dance bars are apparently non-nude (or at
least this one is).
Or indeed, the standard the g-string and tiny triangle bikini's worn
when they're 'dressed' at such clubs. There are later allusions to her
being topless.
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
Or maybe the Exotic dancer 'Betti' played by Corporal Nobbs in Jingo
Post by e***@gmail.com
183 - "Lance Constable von Humpeding needs an apple, urgently."
- see note for page 85. It has to mean *something*, dammit.
A big red rosy juicy apple. Something firm and fleshy, and
appropriately coloured, and probably easier to get hold of that rat
fillet or blutwurst.
Post by e***@gmail.com
211 - "Are you telling me you're two people? With one body?"
- contrast Miss Level from _A Hat Full Of Sky_, who is one person
with two bodies. Indeed, while we're on the subject, compare the
symptoms of infection by the Following Dark in this book with those of
the Hiver in that one.
Or indeed Altogether Andrews, who is many people in one head (Soul
Music)
Post by e***@gmail.com
225 - "in accordance with some butlerian duty" - Possibly an
oblique reference to the "Butlerian jihad" against sentient
machines in Frank Herbert's _Dune_ series.
Thats really stretching things. The jihad was against, iirc, all
complicated calculating machines, not just sentient ones (hence the
development of mentats). Can't see how this ties in, when its clearly
refereing to the duties of the Butler
Post by e***@gmail.com
229 - "two iron boots were cooling from white heat in a puddle of
molten sand." - There's a Bond film where an evil female villain
is killed with some kind of projectile explosive, leaving only a pair
of smoking high heels, but I can't remember the details. Also compare
the vaporization of victims in _Guards, Guards!_.
Common comedy illustration (eg daffy duck, road runner) of the smoking
boots.
Post by e***@gmail.com
233 - "There is green around his mouth, sir." - Possibly
arsenic. The use of suicide attackers in the modern world is,
unfortunately, well-known; recall that this book was published after,
but written before, the 7/7/2005 London Transit bombings. The use of
slow poison by an assassin, however, may originate with the original
series _Star Trek_ episode "Journey to Babel".
Its been around a lot longer than that. i seem to recall (from the dim
and distant past that includes my history GCSE) that often special
missiosn in the ottoman empire were performed by men who take a slow
poisen. It avoided capture and interogation, and sometimes the
antidote was supplied after a successfull completion. Gives no end of
motivation for mission completion.
Post by e***@gmail.com
278 - "'Have you ever been up to the attics here, Sam?'
'No!'" - How long has Sam lived in this house, and he still
hasn't seen every room? Compare the Jungian image of the house noted
on page 102.
Except its not his house, its Pseudopolis yard.
Post by e***@gmail.com
291 - "Generations of rascally drunk student wizards..." - We
see these loose bricks in _Equal Rites_ and again in _Soul Music_.
Actually, first in Light Fantastic, as Rincewind levers out the bricks
at the end.
Post by e***@gmail.com
305 - "Perhaps sound was unable to keep up." - The speed of
sound in normal air is around 750 miles an hour.
730 iirc, at sea level.
Post by e***@gmail.com
312 - "The landscape ahead was strangely bluish..." - Compare
the change in colors seen in similar circumstances in _Thief of Time_,
and also recall the "slow light" of the Discworld.
Actually, its a standard physics effect called doppler-shift. Used a
lot in astronomical observation to detect if things are gong towards
or away from us.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "It's amazing how the inn's beer helped recovery."
- There are two schools of thought about alcoholism, one that a
recovering alcoholic must never drink again and another that moderation
can be learned. Vimes apparently follows the second school; or
possibly, strong liquor counts differently
... despite the 'not one drop' philosophy related in T5E
Post by e***@gmail.com
361 - "The carvings on Diamond" - made with, er, what?
Another diamond, other hard material - diamond is not universally
hard, its cyrstaline structure means it can have fracture points, an
dareas that can be cut away. Iron is softer than many types of rock,
but you can still use iron to carve that harder rock.
Diane L
2005-10-10 20:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
With some rather nit-picking responses from me.
Post by e***@gmail.com
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
(pre-half title) - "500,000 years old" - Trollish writing
clearly predates Dwarfish and Human, as established in pre-existing DW
canon. Compare Dwarfish beliefs in this book.
1 - "Sam Vimes shaved himself." - Possibly a synthesis of the
well-known logical paradox "the barber shaves all those who do not
shave themselves; who shaves the barber?" and the question stated
many times in this book, "who watches the watchers?"
But more, surely, to do with Sam's conviction that by refusing to be
shaved by his butler, he's striking a blow for equality, freedom and
probably a hard-boiled egg.
Post by e***@gmail.com
2 - "The steel was a lot better than the steel you got today" -
Dwarves make the best steel (see later at the well). Is the old steel
really better, or is Vimes seeing through rose-colored glasses, as he
will several times in this novel?
Ibid. - "Grag Hamcrusher" - My first guess for the origin of
this name is that, like Goodmountain in _The Truth_, Hamcrusher's
name may be a translation of the name of some famous demagogue from
Earth history. The best guess I have so far is "Ham" -> German
"Schenk" -> "Schinklgruber", a purported real name for Adolf
Hitler, but this seems a stretch.
Ibid. - "A cap-brim sewn with pennies" - British Special Forces
have been described as doing just such a thing for brawling; compare
also the deadly hat of Auric Goldfinger's henchman Oddjob in the
James Bond adventure _Goldfinger_.
4 - "Mr., er, Fizz" - first mentioned in _Monstrous Regiment_
as the Ankh Morpork Times' cartoonist.
Based on the Dickensian illustrator 'Phiz', who must have been
mentioned in the MR annotations.
Post by e***@gmail.com
5 - "Methodia Rascal" - What might be the origin of this name?
7 - "His ridiculous accent that grew thicker or thinner..." -
This is the well-documented linguistic phenomenon of "register
change", and is not necessarily done consciously.
8 - "Mr. Pessimal" - Possibly, this name is a portmanteau of
"pessimist" (or indeed "pessary") and "decimal". Pterry's
Dickensian character naming scheme continues to grow.
'Pessimal' is the opposite of 'optimal', hence a pessimal situation
is the worse possible. (So maybe I'm *not* the only one who
didn't know that without looking it up!)
Post by e***@gmail.com
9 - "Do you know Mr. John Smith?" - the popular British
character of the Doctor in _Dr. Who_ occasionally goes by "Doctor
John Smith", and has worn colourful vests in many of his
incarnations. Compare also the vampires playing at being everyday
humans in _Carpe Jugulum_.
11 - "for thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances?" - From
this, we can conclude that it is possible to live a reasonably
middle-class lifestyle on thirty-eight $AM a month.
Ibid. - "You're not a vampire, Doreen!..." - compare the
inherited vampire couple in _Moving Pictures_.
Reaper Man. Same couple.
Post by e***@gmail.com
12 - "Count Vargo St. Gruet von Vilinus!" - one of the battles
of Koom Valley took place in Vilinus Pass.
Ibid - "collects bananas" - See note for page 85.
Ibid - "Cockbill Street" - see _Feet of Clay_.
Ibid - "Salacia Deloresista Amanita..." - "Amanita" is a
genus of mushrooms containing many of the most toxic known.
"Zeldana" seems to be some kind of construction material.
'Salacious', Appealing to or stimulating sexual desire; lascivious.

[...]
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
Wilson, Kepple and Betty - 'exotic' dancers in the sense of 'foreign'.
also,maybe Betty Perske, who changed her name to Lauren Bacall


Diane L.
Sorcha
2005-10-12 16:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diane L
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
With some rather nit-picking responses from me.
Post by e***@gmail.com
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
4 - "Mr., er, Fizz" - first mentioned in _Monstrous Regiment_
as the Ankh Morpork Times' cartoonist.
Based on the Dickensian illustrator 'Phiz', who must have been
mentioned in the MR annotations.
Ah, that's who it was - that one was annoying me!

He was indeed, page 177, to be precise.

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
Brion K. Lienhart
2005-10-10 22:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
298 - "there's seven broomsticks nailed underneath each coach."
- Compare how Moist von Lipwig pointedly did not use a broomstick in
the final race in _Going Postal_.
Moist had no intention of actually going to Genua though, it was just a
setup for the bigger scam. He had to clearly be seen to be not using any
magic at all, Vimes just doesn't want anything obvious.
Brian Wakeling
2005-10-10 23:40:23 UTC
Permalink
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published
Harper-Collins 1st Edition, released 13 September 2005,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
(pre-half title) - "500,000 years old" - Trollish writing
clearly predates Dwarfish and Human, as established in
pre-existing DW canon. Compare Dwarfish beliefs in this
book.
How do we know that humans and dwarfs haven't been around for
that long as well? Neanderthal man, the most recent
evolutionary stage before homo sapiens, was around from
300,000 to 40,000 ish years ago.
Post by e***@gmail.com
1 - "Sam Vimes shaved himself." - Possibly a synthesis of
the well-known logical paradox "the barber shaves all those
who do not shave themselves; who shaves the barber?" and
the question stated
many times in this book, "who watches the watchers?"
We know why Vimes shaves himself, and it's nothing to do with
philosophical conundrums. It is first seen and explained in
FoC, IIRC
Post by e***@gmail.com
2 - "The steel was a lot better than the steel you got
today" - Dwarves make the best steel (see later at the
well). Is the old steel really better, or is Vimes seeing
through rose-colored glasses, as he will several times in
this novel?
Whilst modern mass-produced steel is often of a better quality
and longer lasting, carefully hand-wrought steel keeps a
better edge, because it's easier to fold and manipulate into
the fine wossnames needed for being able to eg. give a fly a
shave and haircut in mid-flight.
Post by e***@gmail.com
4 - "Mr., er, Fizz" - first mentioned in _Monstrous
Regiment_
as the Ankh Morpork Times' cartoonist.
Hablott Knight Brown (I think he was called) was a cartoonist
who drew under the name of Phiz, and was working at least up
to WWII
Post by e***@gmail.com
5 - "Methodia Rascal" - What might be the origin of this
name?
There is method in the madness. Compare with names of other
creative types - Bloody Stupid Johnson, Sagacity Smith,
Capability Brown, and Leonard da Quirm. Er...
Post by e***@gmail.com
7 - "His ridiculous accent that grew thicker or thinner..."
-
This is the well-documented linguistic phenomenon of
"register change", and is not necessarily done consciously.
I think Otto is doing it consciously, as a form of
self-defence against the "all vampires are evil" school of
thought. A thick accent when needing to appear funny (and
hence not seen as a threat), and a clearer one when needing to
be taken seriously, are very useful items for a foreigner in a
semi-hostile city.
Post by e***@gmail.com
9 - "Do you know Mr. John Smith?" - the popular British
character of the Doctor in _Dr. Who_ occasionally goes by
"Doctor
John Smith", and has worn colourful vests in many of his
incarnations. Compare also the vampires playing at being
everyday humans in _Carpe Jugulum_.
More like he's trying to be "the man in the street" - a name
comprised of the most common first and surnames in the English
language, a sweater that wouldn't look out of place on a
golf-course, smoking a pipe, etc
Post by e***@gmail.com
11 - "for thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances?" -
From
this, we can conclude that it is possible to live a
reasonably middle-class lifestyle on thirty-eight $AM a
month.
In The Truth, William de Worde's income more explicitly says
that it's possible to live quite a comfortable lifestyle on 40
dollars a month. Compare it with Sergeants' pay of $18 a month
during G!G!
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "You're not a vampire, Doreen!..." - compare the
inherited vampire couple in _Moving Pictures_.
Vast dissimilarities, starting with the fact that there was no
vampire couple in MP. RM, OTOH
Post by e***@gmail.com
12 - "Count Vargo St. Gruet von Vilinus!" - one of the
battles
of Koom Valley took place in Vilinus Pass.
So? "von" means "of". He is Count Vargo St Gruet of Vilinus.
He probably just un-lived there originally - in the mountains
of Uberwald, which we know is vampire territory.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid - "collects bananas" - See note for page 85.
Merely trying to have a normal hobby (and failing)
Post by e***@gmail.com
17 - "Quid custodiet ipsos custodes?" - Juvenal, "Satires".
"Who shall guard the guardsmen?" but often translated as
"who
watches the watchers?" either of which fits in an AM City
Watch context. The line's original contexts relates to
locking up one's
wife in order to prevent her from cheating, followed by the
fear that she may be seduced by the guard watching her.
It's mentioned in some form in every Watch book. G!G!, the mob
that come to dispose of Lady Ramkin's dragons "quiz custodiet
custard?" MAA, Vetinari, in Morporkian (otherwise known as
English). FoC, Vetinari again, in Latatian, to Vimes near one
end of the book (can't remember if it's beginning or finish).
J, I think Rust says it, shortly after Vetinari's deposition.
T5E and NW, Vimes, at various times in Latiatian and
Morporkian.
Post by e***@gmail.com
19 - "Fred Colon shook his head....'We knew what one
another was thinking...'" - not only is the Watch looking
back on the less-complicated days of _Guards, Guards!_, but
Pterry himself may be referring to the lighter, less
developed style and content of his earlier Watch novels.
Or it could be a cigar.[1]
Post by e***@gmail.com
22 - "Gods damn the wretched place" - Blatant foreshadowing.
Why? They don't, actually. It only appears to the participants
in the know at the original Koom Valley, that they had, what
with the ferocity of the storm. In which case, you mean
preshadowing.
Post by e***@gmail.com
23 - "The parades were okay" - in Northern Ireland,
nationalistic parades by both sides were once quite common
both as a display of pride and as a means of intimidation.
Still are. There are news reports of riots to prove it.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid - "pole-dancing" - the mazurka, a lively dance
originating
in the Masurian Lakes region of northeastern Poland and
performed in 3/4 time.
Never been to Spearmint Rhino, or anywhere like that, then?
Post by e***@gmail.com
31 - "Two sequins and a bootlace" - In contrast to its other
virtues, Ankh-Morpork's dance bars are apparently non-nude
(or at least this one is).
The dancers aren't going to be naked when off duty, are they?
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "You're not supposed to put it anywhere, Sarge." - a
common rule of ecdysiastic establishments is an admonition
against touching the dancers.
33 - "attitude of a preoccupied chicken" - The
chicken-as-haunting-demon idea occurs thrice in _Thud!_ -
in Sir Reynold's role of what Sam Vimes should have known
about earlier but for his preoccupation, as Methodia
Rascal's demon, and as Angua's reminder of her incomplete
civilization.
It's just another way of saying he's an upper-class twit. See
the Python sketch.
Post by e***@gmail.com
36 - "Don't Talk to Me About Mondays" - Possibly a collision
of Garfield the Cat's "I hate Mondays" (or the Boomtown
Rats' "I Don't Like Mondays") and Marvin the Paranoid
Android's "Life? Don't talk to me about life."
Monday was washday, when the husband was back at the pit and
the wife had his Sunday Best suit ready to wash, along with
his spare set of work clothes. Tuesday was spent ironing,
Wednesday cleaning upstairs, Thursday cleaning downstairs.
Friday was cleaning up after the coal delivery (and payday).
Saturday was shopping and all the other little chores, and
Sunday was the day of rest.
Garfield probably has less to do with it than Bob Geldof,
though.
Post by e***@gmail.com
44 - "She had short hair...a girl who wouldn't mind passing
for
one" - Sally may be written with some lesbian subtext.
Contrast Maledicta from _Monstrous Regiment_.
It is possible to describe a female character as being like
that without meaning any subtle sexual intent.
Post by e***@gmail.com
45 - "Any history....throat biting" - Sally was apparently
born, not made, a vampire.
We could have deduced that from the fact that she is 51. Sally
is 51 and looks like a human woman would at 16, Doreen
Winkings is probably at least as old as Sally, but looks like
a human woman would at 51. Therefore, unless Sally has access
to some truly spectacularly effective anti-wrinkle cream, and
follows Cher's exercise and diet regime, she must have been
born a vampire.
Post by e***@gmail.com
50 - "War, Nobby. Huh! What is it good for?...." - This
passage parodies Edwin Starr's 1970 Vietnam War protest
song, "War".
Contrast the use of "Fixin' to Die Rag" in _Monstrous
Regiment_.
Also note that Colon and Nobby are both veterans of the Ankh
Morpork-Klatch war in _Jingo_.
They are also veterans of many other wars, Nobby in
particular, and have both fought in many battles and seen the
resultant carnage, damage, despair, corruption, etc.
Post by e***@gmail.com
51 - "COPERS ARE BARSTUDS" - compare the corruption of
"bastard" to "brass stud" in _Feet of Clay_.
Why? It's jsut another example of A-M's erratic spelling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition. Going by page numbers, it could be in about the
right place for Vimes to be thinking "The important thing is
not to shout at this point [...] Do not... what do they call
it... go spare?" This would point to an interesting deviation
in the US edition if it is. Throughout most of FoC, most of
Nobby's dialogue is "Vimes'll go spare!", and again in T5E,
Colon thinks to himself in dread "Mr Vimes will go spare when
he gets back" several times. What was in the US edition for
these occurrences of the phrase, before a reliable postal
service was once again operating. It would also indicate a
level of cretinity in the US editor that has hitherto been
unseen, as to go postal means to send things by mail (as in a
leaflet advertising campaign), whereas to go spare means to
totally lose one's rag, go ape shit, become very very angry
indeed. It would make even less sense if Vimes' thought
continued as "Treat this as a learning exercise. Find out why
the world is not as you thought it was. Assemble the facts,
digest the information, consider the implications. /Then/ go
postal. But with precision."
Post by e***@gmail.com
57 - "Ankh-Morpork is mostly built on Ankh-Morpork" - first
revealed in _The Truth_.
First revelealed in MAA, or possibly even G!G!.
"Traditionally, dragons eat virgins tied to rocks". "It'll
starve round here then, we're on loam". And later, Sybil is
tied to a huge piece of rock that Vimes deduces must have been
an ancient piece of masonry dug up from somewhere. The fact of
A-M's building on itself is hinted at in Pyramids and Mort,
and maybe even ER as well.
Post by e***@gmail.com
66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch increases
parallels between Dwarfish culture in Ankh-Morpork and
Arabic culture in Europe.
It's the only parallel, and then it's a weak one. Lots of
people make good coffee.
In the series, I have seen closer parallels between Dwarfish
and Indian cultures, whilst Trollish culture goes closer to
African culture.
Post by e***@gmail.com
79 - "giant wooly elephants" - Brick's psychedelic
experiences possibly belie a latent psychic spiritual
ability; in this instance he has seen the distant past.
Remember that Trolls think they go through time backwards -
from his point of view, he has seen the future.
Post by e***@gmail.com
92 - "small loaf of dwarf bread" - Is this from _Feet of
Clay_?
It could be from G!G! - Carrot's mum sends him a Dwarf cake,
which they save a slice of for capt Vimes. It could also be
from T5E, as I'm sure the Low King wouldn't let Vimes get away
with just an axe - I'm sure the whol diplomatic mission got a
few free samples of traditional Dwarf bread.
Post by e***@gmail.com
94 - "...not because he had a huge interest in the
results..." - Contrast how, in _Night Watch_, Vimes has an
exact idea of the tonnages of foodstuffs consumed by the
city.
He probably looked at the reports once and then didn't bother
ever again. Unless you get a population explosion, or a
plague, or some other disaster, the amount of food doming into
the city is unlikely to change.
Post by e***@gmail.com
96 - "They were baaad trolls. At least, they'd like
everyone to
think so." - Many of the street gangs in United States
history were ethnic in origin and competed primarily with
gangs of other ethnicities.
*Everybody* is ethnic in origin. That's why it's called an
"ethnic group". Note that the gangs in "West Side Story" are
both exclusively white in the film and many stage versions.
Post by e***@gmail.com
100 - "you're on the side of the people" - Another contrast
with _Night Watch_, in which Vimes dismisses the idea of
"the
people" as a conceit.
Yeah, but you try explaining that philosophcal point to two
dozen sceptics in under ten seconds so as not to lose their
interest, whilst barely being able to articulate it to
yourself, and still keeping it in a rousing morale-boosting
spur-of-the-moment speech.
Post by e***@gmail.com
101 - "Er...permission t'speak freely...." - Recall, in this
passage, that Detritus's first partner was a dwarf.
And?
Post by e***@gmail.com
102 - "It looked like a city" - A city or house is employed
as
an image representing the mind at least as far back as C.G.
Jung's _Man and His Symbols_. More recently, Stephen King's
_Dreamcatcher_ (novel 2001, film 2003) features the
character of Jonesy being pursued through the metaphorical
streets of his hometown by an alien trying to take him over.
The classic image of a city with dark streets and tall,
distorted buildings is a Hitchcock film, can't remember what
it was called or who was in it, but practically the only clip
of it you see is the hero in a trenchcoat and fedora[2]
walking away from camera down said wobbly-buildinged street.
Post by e***@gmail.com
104 - "'Baaa!' said Vimes" - Is this simply Vimes
shivering, or is he subconsciously projecting _Where's My
Cow_?
This is Vimes showing he is not a sheep, and not intimidated
by the Troll muscle.
Post by e***@gmail.com
114 - "Vimes was a runner by nature" - compare _Guards,
Guards!_ and the basics of Watch survival in the bad old
days.
Run at the same speed as everyone else. Nothing about not
running. In fact, as long as you ran at the same speed as
everyone else, running was *good*
Post by e***@gmail.com
119 - "various approximations of the hour..." - compare the
clattering of bells in _Night Watch_.
The fact that A-M has several different versions of an hour,
each one clearly audible across the city, is first mentioned
in Pyramids, and again in MAA.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "Trolls don't clean their feet much..." - compare
_Feet of Clay_, in which tracked mud is one of the most
important clues.
Tracked mud is not mentioned in FoC, except as a derisory
"Clue!" by Vimes. There is the grease under the fingernails of
Father Tubelcek, and the newly shit-covered streets in the
slaughterhouse district after the stampede, but no tracked
mud.
Post by e***@gmail.com
140 - "When we have our Koom Valley...burned to the
ground". The
first part of this passage foreshadows Otto's appearance at
the end
of the book; the last sentence takes us all the way back to
the opening of _The Color of Magic_.
The last time A-M was burned to the ground was indeed in TCoM,
but it has been on fire, sometimes severely, severals time
since then - notably in G!G!
Post by e***@gmail.com
145 - "The Plaza of Broken Moons" - Rincewind and Twoflower
have lunch here in _The Color of Magic_.
It *is* one of the major open spaces in the city, I suspect
you can do a lot of things in The Plaza of Broken Moons. Think
of it as Times Square, with nearby Sator Square as Trafalgar
Square. What a lot of public places, what a lot of important
civic buildings, what a lot of tourist shops, what a lot of
hot-dog stalls and sweet shops and fast-food restaurants.
Post by e***@gmail.com
149 - "It didn't get political on you" - Recall that the
plot
in _Guards, Guards!_ was explicitly political, concerning a
conspiracy to replace Vetinari.
No, it was not political. Not when compared to the plots in
FoC and TT. G!G! was merely attempted coup d'etat with the
setting up of a puppet ruler in the aftermath.
Post by e***@gmail.com
152 - "When push came to shove...removed was yours." -
Recall
the citizen militia of _Night Watch_.
The citizens militia of NW was exactly that - a gathering of
old soldiers and young lads not in the regiments, armed to the
teeth with whatever they could get their hands on. The
Specials in NW were more properly called The Cable Street
Particulars. Read Maskerade to see a member of the modern
Cable Street Particulars in action - his profile, and that of
the other Special Constables seen in T!, and of Special
Constables in the UK, are typical of what Special Constables
are - citizens who would like to be regular law-enforcement
officers, but for occupational or other reasons, aren't.
Post by e***@gmail.com
155 - "numknuts" - akin, of course, to nunchaku (popularly
nunchucks), a Chinese flail consisting of two wooden shafts
connected by a chain or cord.
Japanese. The Chinese rice-flail was essentially the same
weapon, except one bit of wood was four feet long, the other
bit was two feet, and the chain was six inches. Compare with
nunchaku dimensions of two bits of wood 18 inches long, and a
9-inch chain connecting them.
Post by e***@gmail.com
166 footnote - "Empirical Crescent...all this by accident."
-
It is notable that B.S. Johnson's works, which started out
as merely inept in earlier books, have developed into
quasi-magical perversions of the very fabric of space and
time. Compare also Robert Heinlein's 1941 short story "-And
He Built A Crooked House-".
An empirical formula is a basic chemical formula that
represents the lowest possible level of molecular combinations
in a given substance. eg. sugar has the empirical formula
C6H12O6, but could have an actual formula of C36H72O36. I
think - it's been a while since I did GCSE chemistry.
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." -
Compare "borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as
described in _Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average
vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty
*might* just barely weigh 40 pounds.
Borrowing is literally just borrowing the mind of another
creature. A swarm of bees needs to be borrowed en masse, as
they are a hive mind, and you cannot control an entire body if
you are just borrowing one finger.
Also, some fruit bat species are noticably larger than vampire
bats. At 7 ounces per bat, 150 bats is 75 pounds, a more
realistic weight for a young woman than 40 pounds.
Post by e***@gmail.com
171 - "A paying audience?" - Pterry may, in this passage, be
playing with the slash fiction community reading this book.
Or he may have given Sally a peurile sense of humour.
Post by e***@gmail.com
183 - "Lance Constable von Humpeding needs an apple,
urgently." - see note for page 85. It has to mean
*something*, dammit.
Yes - it means Sally needs to bite something large and
soft-ish RIGHT NOW, or she might want to start biting necks.
Post by e***@gmail.com
206 - "No. 3 Tenth Egg Street" - Tenth Egg Street is
previously referred to as the home base of Willikins's
boyhood street gang.
No, he was in the Shamlegger Street Rude Boys. The Tenth Egg
Street Gange is a troll gang, so thick that they are called
the "Tenth Egg Street Can't-Think-of-a-Nickname Gang" and
their mascot is rumoured to be a lump of concrete on a string.
Post by e***@gmail.com
225 - "in accordance with some butlerian duty" - Possibly an
oblique reference to the "Butlerian jihad" against sentient
machines in Frank Herbert's _Dune_ series.
Either that, or a wine store is more properly called a
buttery.
Post by e***@gmail.com
278 - "'Have you ever been up to the attics here, Sam?'
'No!'" - How long has Sam lived in this house, and he still
hasn't seen every room? Compare the Jungian image of the
house noted on page 102.
He doesn't live in this house - they are in Psuedopolis Yard,
which the Ramkin family used to own, but haven't used for
several years/decades.
Post by e***@gmail.com
291 - "Generations of rascally drunk student wizards..." -
We
see these loose bricks in _Equal Rites_ and again in _Soul
Music_.
We also see them in LF, S, MP and Jingo, and their Xsian
equivalent (a loose panel of corrugated iron) in TLC.
Post by e***@gmail.com
300 - "Signed the message 'Aicalas'." - Compare Mr. Soak in
_Thief of Time_, but particularly see the note for page 8
of _Carpe Jugulum_.
This is an old trick for vampires - Count Alucard, anyone?
Post by e***@gmail.com
302. - "many had ever been found again" -The first American
printing contains a number of typographical errors,
especially near the end.
As does the UK version
Post by e***@gmail.com
305 - "Perhaps sound was unable to keep up." - The speed of
sound in normal air is around 750 miles an hour.
330 m/s works out at 738mph at sea level. The speed of sound
slowly decreased as you gain altitude, until you reach
36,000ft-ish, where it levels off at 660 mph (295 m/s)
Post by e***@gmail.com
312. - "It's amazing how the inn's beer helped recovery."
- There are two schools of thought about alcoholism, one
that a recovering alcoholic must never drink again and
another that moderation can be learned. Vimes apparently
follows the second school; or possibly, strong liquor
counts differently
Back to HHGTTG - alcohol, in the form of three pints of
bitter, helps cushion Arthur Dent's bodily systems from the
effect of his first teleport.
Post by e***@gmail.com
317 - "Campfires from the valley...." - A few ways to go
here.
On the one hand, it might be a reference to the civilian
observers who watched the Battle of Bull Run (1861) as if
it were an afternoon's entertainment; or on the other, to
the early arrivals at CCDE looking for a good spot; or on
the other other hand, it could be just taken at face value.
I think it's probably just as Cheery says it is, in the rest
of her sentence.
Post by e***@gmail.com
354 - "he spoke fluent Chicken" - possibly a reference to
the
surreal webcomic _The Parking Lot Is Full_, which featured
one strip in which civilization is ended by a linguist who
invents a language called "Chicken".
Or merely to the fact that Methodia Rascal was a loony who was
afraid of a chicken pursuing him, and that he might also be a
chicken, and was gibbering to himself whithin activation range
of the Cube.
Post by e***@gmail.com
361 - "The carvings on Diamond" - made with, er, what?
Another diamond? Burned into his hide with sunlight?


[1] See Freud.
[2] Trenchcoat and fedora being the uniform of PIs
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
Sign in a shop:
"Credit will only be granted to people over 80
If accompanied by both parents"
Alister
2005-10-11 00:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published
Harper-Collins 1st Edition, released 13 September 2005,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
An empirical formula is a basic chemical formula that
represents the lowest possible level of molecular combinations
in a given substance. eg. sugar has the empirical formula
C6H12O6, but could have an actual formula of C36H72O36. I
think - it's been a while since I did GCSE chemistry.
Sorry Brian, I agree with most of your points but I must argue with this one.

I think it is much more likely to be alluding to Empirical evidence (or
Empirical results) where, basically, you do an experiment and see what happens!
(as opposed to predicting the result *first*)

This seems to be a B.S. Johnson favourite - let's build it and see what happens.

ALastair.
Galen Musbach
2005-10-11 01:21:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:40:23 +0100, "Brian Wakeling"
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition. Going by page numbers, it could be in about the
right place for Vimes to be thinking "The important thing is
not to shout at this point [...] Do not... what do they call
it... go spare?" This would point to an interesting deviation
in the US edition if it is.
That's it exactly. The US edition translated
"go spare" as "go postal". In the US, postal
workers have a tendency to become violently
insane.

-Galen
David Cherry
2005-10-11 07:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galen Musbach
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:40:23 +0100, "Brian Wakeling"
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition. Going by page numbers, it could be in about the
right place for Vimes to be thinking "The important thing is
not to shout at this point [...] Do not... what do they call
it... go spare?" This would point to an interesting deviation
in the US edition if it is.
That's it exactly. The US edition translated
"go spare" as "go postal". In the US, postal
workers have a tendency to become violently
insane.
Violently insane armed with M16's etc. Not a good mix. There have been
several highly publicized incidents where postal workers went on murderous
rampages
flobert
2005-10-11 13:26:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galen Musbach
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:40:23 +0100, "Brian Wakeling"
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition. Going by page numbers, it could be in about the
right place for Vimes to be thinking "The important thing is
not to shout at this point [...] Do not... what do they call
it... go spare?" This would point to an interesting deviation
in the US edition if it is.
That's it exactly. The US edition translated
"go spare" as "go postal".
Yet another example of the Us publishers altering something, and
ruining it as well.

My copy also has tawnee being the first week in June, not Grune.

(Thanks to the wonders of IRC, i know of at least 2 others online the
same time as me, with UK edititons, to check these out :-)
Post by Galen Musbach
-Galen
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-11 22:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Spoiler space coming up, turn down the volume:

3
1
4
1
5
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2
6
5
3
5
8
9
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9
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2
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Post by flobert
Post by Galen Musbach
That's it exactly. The US edition translated
"go spare" as "go postal".
Yet another example of the Us publishers altering something, and
ruining it as well.g
It's consistent in the ebook too -- all references to going spare have
been converted. If it was felt that Americans wouldn't understand "go
spare", they could at least have used something different, like irate,
in high dudgeon or bananas. With GP fresh in mind, going postal just
doesn't work (never mind that it implies killing people).
Post by flobert
My copy also has tawnee being the first week in June, not Grune.
Same with the ebook (except that it at least has Tawneee with three
e's -- doesn't the US paper book?).
Well, at least they didn't translate Grune to JeJune.

Regards,
--
*Art
Galen Musbach
2005-10-11 01:31:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:40:23 +0100, "Brian Wakeling"
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
361 - "The carvings on Diamond" - made with, er, what?
Another diamond? Burned into his hide with sunlight?
A diamond will ignite and burn to ashes
under any intensity that would etch it.
The jewel destroyed in the experiment
is still remembered.

-Galen
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-11 03:22:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
An empirical formula is a basic chemical formula that
represents the lowest possible level of molecular combinations
in a given substance. eg. sugar has the empirical formula
C6H12O6, but could have an actual formula of C36H72O36. I
think - it's been a while since I did GCSE chemistry.
No, that would just be 3x(C6H12O6). Try C12H22O11, which can split into
2x(C6H12O6) if you add H2O (water).

Regards,
--
*Art
Brian Wakeling
2005-10-11 18:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Hagen
Post by Brian Wakeling
An empirical formula is a basic chemical formula that
represents the lowest possible level of molecular
combinations in a given substance. eg. sugar has the
empirical formula C6H12O6, but could have an actual
formula of C36H72O36. I think - it's been a while since I
did GCSE chemistry.
No, that would just be 3x(C6H12O6). Try C12H22O11, which
can split into 2x(C6H12O6) if you add H2O (water).
Regards,
Well, I did say it has been while since I did chemistry as a
subject
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
"Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be
happy."
- HL Mencken
e***@gmail.com
2005-10-11 10:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published
Harper-Collins 1st Edition, released 13 September 2005,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
(pre-half title) - "500,000 years old" - Trollish writing
clearly predates Dwarfish and Human, as established in
pre-existing DW canon. Compare Dwarfish beliefs in this
book.
How do we know that humans and dwarfs haven't been around for
that long as well? Neanderthal man, the most recent
evolutionary stage before homo sapiens, was around from
300,000 to 40,000 ish years ago.
Somewhere there's a note that trolls predate all the other races, but I
forget where.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
4 - "Mr., er, Fizz" - first mentioned in _Monstrous
Regiment_
as the Ankh Morpork Times' cartoonist.
Hablott Knight Brown (I think he was called) was a cartoonist
who drew under the name of Phiz, and was working at least up
to WWII
Yes, that would in fact be the annotation in _Monstrous Regiment_
p.177. ;)
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
12 - "Count Vargo St. Gruet von Vilinus!" - one of the
battles
of Koom Valley took place in Vilinus Pass.
So? "von" means "of". He is Count Vargo St Gruet of Vilinus.
He probably just un-lived there originally - in the mountains
of Uberwald, which we know is vampire territory.
I'm inclined to think it's not entirely coincidence just because the
word doesn't (AFAIAA) appear anywhere else in DW and suddenly shows up
twice. Pterry may have just had it on his mind.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
22 - "Gods damn the wretched place" - Blatant foreshadowing.
Why? They don't, actually. It only appears to the participants
in the know at the original Koom Valley, that they had, what
with the ferocity of the storm. In which case, you mean
preshadowing.
No, but Koom Valley does get *dammed*.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
33 - "attitude of a preoccupied chicken" - The
chicken-as-haunting-demon idea occurs thrice in _Thud!_ -
in Sir Reynold's role of what Sam Vimes should have known
about earlier but for his preoccupation, as Methodia
Rascal's demon, and as Angua's reminder of her incomplete
civilization.
It's just another way of saying he's an upper-class twit. See
the Python sketch.
Seen it. As above, I'm inclined to say that if an author includes an
image four or five times in a book, it's supposed to mean something.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
44 - "She had short hair...a girl who wouldn't mind passing
for
one" - Sally may be written with some lesbian subtext.
Contrast Maledicta from _Monstrous Regiment_.
It is possible to describe a female character as being like
that without meaning any subtle sexual intent.
Yes, but in this case I don't think it's without subtle sexual intent;
although contrast the presentation of Tilda in _MR_.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
51 - "COPERS ARE BARSTUDS" - compare the corruption of
"bastard" to "brass stud" in _Feet of Clay_.
Why? It's jsut another example of A-M's erratic spelling
It's a multi-book theme.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition. Going by page numbers, it could be in about the
right place for Vimes to be thinking "The important thing is
not to shout at this point [...] Do not... what do they call
it... go spare?" This would point to an interesting deviation
in the US edition if it is. Throughout most of FoC, most of
Nobby's dialogue is "Vimes'll go spare!", and again in T5E,
Colon thinks to himself in dread "Mr Vimes will go spare when
he gets back" several times. What was in the US edition for
these occurrences of the phrase, before a reliable postal
service was once again operating. It would also indicate a
level of cretinity in the US editor that has hitherto been
unseen, as to go postal means to send things by mail (as in a
leaflet advertising campaign), whereas to go spare means to
totally lose one's rag, go ape shit, become very very angry
indeed. It would make even less sense if Vimes' thought
continued as "Treat this as a learning exercise. Find out why
the world is not as you thought it was. Assemble the facts,
digest the information, consider the implications. /Then/ go
postal. But with precision."
It seems to have been "translated", yes; "go spare" was left untouched
in other books, so I suspect someone at Harper-Collins might have
thought they were being clever.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch increases
parallels between Dwarfish culture in Ankh-Morpork and
Arabic culture in Europe.
It's the only parallel, and then it's a weak one. Lots of
people make good coffee.
In the series, I have seen closer parallels between Dwarfish
and Indian cultures, whilst Trollish culture goes closer to
African culture.
I don't think it's the only one -- dwarves also have their own
religion, cover themselves, and have their own parts of town. I should
be more specific: in this book, I think the dwarves are presented as an
allusion to Muslims *in Britain*. Yes, they've been projected as
kinda-Scandinavian kinda-Tolkien before and there's nothing
inconsistent with that here, but the author has started from there and
added additional nuances for the purposes of the story.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
96 - "They were baaad trolls. At least, they'd like
everyone to
think so." - Many of the street gangs in United States
history were ethnic in origin and competed primarily with
gangs of other ethnicities.
*Everybody* is ethnic in origin. That's why it's called an
"ethnic group". Note that the gangs in "West Side Story" are
both exclusively white in the film and many stage versions.
That is to say, ethnic-pride gangs; for a long time the dominant
dynamic was to have, say, an Irish gang which only let in members of
Irish extraction fighting turf wars with an Italian gang which only let
in members of Italian extraction -- lumps, as it were, in the melting
pot of New York City. Despite the facts of _T5E_, Ankh-Morpork is
probably not "a dwarvish city" in the minds of its inhabitants, but
rather a human city with a large dwarf population.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
100 - "you're on the side of the people" - Another contrast
with _Night Watch_, in which Vimes dismisses the idea of
"the
people" as a conceit.
Yeah, but you try explaining that philosophcal point to two
dozen sceptics in under ten seconds so as not to lose their
interest, whilst barely being able to articulate it to
yourself, and still keeping it in a rousing morale-boosting
spur-of-the-moment speech.
Based on this and the innumerable other references to _NW_ in this
book, I'm inclined to see it as character evolution.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
101 - "Er...permission t'speak freely...." - Recall, in this
passage, that Detritus's first partner was a dwarf.
And?
So he's qualified to talk about the difficulties of dwarf-troll
relationships because he's overcome them.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
114 - "Vimes was a runner by nature" - compare _Guards,
Guards!_ and the basics of Watch survival in the bad old
days.
Run at the same speed as everyone else. Nothing about not
running. In fact, as long as you ran at the same speed as
everyone else, running was *good*
That's why it's "compare", not "contrast".
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
149 - "It didn't get political on you" - Recall that the
plot
in _Guards, Guards!_ was explicitly political, concerning a
conspiracy to replace Vetinari.
No, it was not political. Not when compared to the plots in
FoC and TT. G!G! was merely attempted coup d'etat with the
setting up of a puppet ruler in the aftermath.
I disagree. The plot was equally politically driven in all those books,
but in _G!G!_ Vimes was seeing it from street level.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." -
Compare "borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as
described in _Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average
vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty
*might* just barely weigh 40 pounds.
Also, some fruit bat species are noticably larger than vampire
bats. At 7 ounces per bat, 150 bats is 75 pounds, a more
realistic weight for a young woman than 40 pounds.
Why would a vampire turn into fruitbats?
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
300 - "Signed the message 'Aicalas'." - Compare Mr. Soak in
_Thief of Time_, but particularly see the note for page 8
of _Carpe Jugulum_.
This is an old trick for vampires - Count Alucard, anyone?
That would, indeed, be the note for page 8 of _CJ_.
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
302. - "many had ever been found again" -The first American
printing contains a number of typographical errors,
especially near the end.
As does the UK version
Are they the same errors, I wonder?
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
305 - "Perhaps sound was unable to keep up." - The speed of
sound in normal air is around 750 miles an hour.
330 m/s works out at 738mph at sea level. The speed of sound
slowly decreased as you gain altitude, until you reach
36,000ft-ish, where it levels off at 660 mph (295 m/s)
In either case, it's probably (given a 100mph speed of the carriage)
figurative rather than literal.

Edmund
Brian Wakeling
2005-10-11 18:31:45 UTC
Permalink
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published
Harper-Collins 1st Edition, released 13 September 2005,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
22 - "Gods damn the wretched place" - Blatant
foreshadowing.
Why? They don't, actually. It only appears to the
participants in the know at the original Koom Valley, that
they had, what with the ferocity of the storm. In which
case, you mean preshadowing.
No, but Koom Valley does get *dammed*.
GROAN. Hadn't spotted that one. Ta.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch
increases parallels between Dwarfish culture in
Ankh-Morpork and Arabic culture in Europe.
It's the only parallel, and then it's a weak one. Lots of
people make good coffee.
In the series, I have seen closer parallels between
Dwarfish and Indian cultures, whilst Trollish culture goes
closer to African culture.
I don't think it's the only one -- dwarves also have their
own religion, cover themselves, and have their own parts of
town. I should be more specific: in this book, I think the
dwarves are presented as an allusion to Muslims *in
Britain*.
Yes, I got that. And most Muslims in Britain are from the
Indian subcontinent.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Yes, they've been projected as kinda-Scandinavian
kinda-Tolkien before and there's nothing inconsistent with
that here, but the author has started from there and added
additional nuances for the purposes of the story.
Hmm. Have we seen a Dwarfish sauna?
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
149 - "It didn't get political on you" - Recall that the
plot
in _Guards, Guards!_ was explicitly political, concerning
a conspiracy to replace Vetinari.
No, it was not political. Not when compared to the plots in
FoC and TT. G!G! was merely attempted coup d'etat with the
setting up of a puppet ruler in the aftermath.
I disagree. The plot was equally politically driven in all
those books, but in _G!G!_ Vimes was seeing it from street
level.
I see the activities of the conspirators in G!G! as for purely
personal gain. They're too small-minded (with the exception of
Wonse) to think about the bigger picture. Yes, the goal of all
the plots was the removal of Vetinari from power, but in G!G!
the end situation was merely one where the plotters had a
better life, whereas in FoC and TT, the end situation is one
where the plotters have more power, and indeed, are the only
ones with any semblance of it.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." -
Compare "borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as
described in _Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average
vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty
*might* just barely weigh 40 pounds.
Also, some fruit bat species are noticably larger than
vampire bats. At 7 ounces per bat, 150 bats is 75 pounds,
a more realistic weight for a young woman than 40 pounds.
Why would a vampire turn into fruitbats?
I'm not saying they would. I'm just saying that not all bats
weigh 3.5 ounces, and larger ones are available.
Anyway, as a non-reformed vampire can turn into one bat, the
extra mass must go somewhere, right? And Sally doesn't say
that not drinking blood completely removes the ability to
ignore the extra mass, so perhaps it just reduces the amount
of mass that can "disappear".
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
302. - "many had ever been found again" -The first
American printing contains a number of typographical
errors, especially near the end.
As does the UK version
Are they the same errors, I wonder?
I don't think the above is one, but there's an "propre armour
proper armour" in there somewhere (regarding Angua)
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
"Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your week"
Pussinspooks
2005-10-11 19:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." -
Compare "borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as
described in _Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average
vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty
*might* just barely weigh 40 pounds.
Also, some fruit bat species are noticably larger than
vampire bats. At 7 ounces per bat, 150 bats is 75 pounds,
a more realistic weight for a young woman than 40 pounds.
Why would a vampire turn into fruitbats?
I'm not saying they would. I'm just saying that not all bats
weigh 3.5 ounces, and larger ones are available.
Anyway, as a non-reformed vampire can turn into one bat, the
extra mass must go somewhere, right? And Sally doesn't say
that not drinking blood completely removes the ability to
ignore the extra mass, so perhaps it just reduces the amount
of mass that can "disappear".
__________________
A bunch of fruitbats does seem strangely appropriate for a 'Black
Ribboner' though, ties in nicely with that apple she had to settle for,
too.
Alister
2005-10-11 19:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published
Harper-Collins 1st Edition, released 13 September 2005,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
302. - "many had ever been found again" -The first
American printing contains a number of typographical
errors, especially near the end.
As does the UK version
Are they the same errors, I wonder?
I don't think the above is one, but there's an "propre armour
proper armour" in there somewhere (regarding Angua)
I can't find it at the moment, but I thought when I read it that it
was a pune or play on words.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/amour%20propre

Noun1. amour propre - feelings of excessive pride

conceit, self-love, vanity

pride, pridefulness - a feeling of self-respect and personal worth

Alastair.
jester
2005-10-11 18:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published
Harper-Collins 1st Edition, released 13 September 2005,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
<HACK!>
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." -
Compare "borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as
described in _Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average
vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty
*might* just barely weigh 40 pounds.
Also, some fruit bat species are noticably larger than vampire
bats. At 7 ounces per bat, 150 bats is 75 pounds, a more
realistic weight for a young woman than 40 pounds.
Why would a vampire turn into fruitbats?
Well, if a reformed vampire is happy to chomp an apple instead of a neck,
and possibly drink fruit juice instead of blood, why not turn into
fruitbats instead of vampire bats?
--
Andy Brown
Every nonzero finite dimensional inner product space has an orthonormal basis.

It makes sense, when you don't think about it.
Mart van de Wege
2005-10-11 22:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by jester
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
In a speech called
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published
Harper-Collins 1st Edition, released 13 September 2005,
978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
<HACK!>
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." -
Compare "borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as
described in _Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average
vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty
*might* just barely weigh 40 pounds.
Also, some fruit bat species are noticably larger than vampire
bats. At 7 ounces per bat, 150 bats is 75 pounds, a more
realistic weight for a young woman than 40 pounds.
Why would a vampire turn into fruitbats?
Well, if a reformed vampire is happy to chomp an apple instead of a neck,
and possibly drink fruit juice instead of blood, why not turn into
fruitbats instead of vampire bats?
Maybe she was dragged kicking and screaming into the Century of the
Fruitbat?

Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
Terry Pratchett
2005-10-11 22:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
I don't think it's the only one -- dwarves also have their own
religion, cover themselves, and have their own parts of town. I should
be more specific: in this book, I think the dwarves are presented as an
allusion to Muslims *in Britain*. Yes, they've been projected as
kinda-Scandinavian kinda-Tolkien before and there's nothing
inconsistent with that here, but the author has started from there and
added additional nuances for the purposes of the story.
I mean no offence when I say that think you'll find that you added
those nuances yourself, in the light of events last summer -- which
were in the future when Thud! was written.

I seem to recall e-mails after the Truth and T5E* that claimed the
dwarfs were Jewish...

* in which dwarfs had their own 'religion', the deep-downers covered
themselves (and were already being seen in A-M) and the hatred of
trolls was very real.
--
Terry Pratchett
FiX
2005-10-12 21:45:13 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:44:59 +0100, Terry Pratchett
<***@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

spoiler space
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
Post by Terry Pratchett
* in which dwarfs had their own 'religion', the deep-downers
~~~~~~~~~~
Err, maybe it's just me, but when I saw the term deep-downers, my
reaction was:
"
What is deep down? The fundament
Ohh, so maybe deep-downers=fundamentalists?
"
And then, reading about how the deep downers would _never_ see the
light, I felt kind of vindicated...

So, am I just grasping at straws or is this an actual, Pterry
endorsed, annotation? O:-)

FiX
rich hammett
2005-10-14 00:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Pratchett
Post by e***@gmail.com
I don't think it's the only one -- dwarves also have their own
religion, cover themselves, and have their own parts of town. I should
be more specific: in this book, I think the dwarves are presented as an
allusion to Muslims *in Britain*. Yes, they've been projected as
kinda-Scandinavian kinda-Tolkien before and there's nothing
inconsistent with that here, but the author has started from there and
added additional nuances for the purposes of the story.
I mean no offence when I say that think you'll find that you added
those nuances yourself, in the light of events last summer -- which
were in the future when Thud! was written.
I seem to recall e-mails after the Truth and T5E* that claimed the
dwarfs were Jewish...
* in which dwarfs had their own 'religion', the deep-downers covered
themselves (and were already being seen in A-M) and the hatred of
trolls was very real.
In Thud!, I found the dwarfs' religion to be an intriguing
mix of all three Abrahamic religions, with the strongest
influence being European judaism of the late middle and
early modern periods.

There were lots of features of judaism, but I don't remember
any that were specifically Islamic...

rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ The Bill Clinton of RSFC
Rocky Frisco
2005-12-14 18:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by rich hammett
Post by Terry Pratchett
Post by e***@gmail.com
I don't think it's the only one -- dwarves also have their own
religion, cover themselves, and have their own parts of town. I should
be more specific: in this book, I think the dwarves are presented as an
allusion to Muslims *in Britain*. Yes, they've been projected as
kinda-Scandinavian kinda-Tolkien before and there's nothing
inconsistent with that here, but the author has started from there and
added additional nuances for the purposes of the story.
I mean no offence when I say that think you'll find that you added
those nuances yourself, in the light of events last summer -- which
were in the future when Thud! was written.
I seem to recall e-mails after the Truth and T5E* that claimed the
dwarfs were Jewish...
* in which dwarfs had their own 'religion', the deep-downers covered
themselves (and were already being seen in A-M) and the hatred of
trolls was very real.
In Thud!, I found the dwarfs' religion to be an intriguing
mix of all three Abrahamic religions, with the strongest
influence being European judaism of the late middle and
early modern periods.
There were lots of features of judaism, but I don't remember
any that were specifically Islamic...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Dwarf deity named "Tak?"

"Tak" pronounced backwards is "Kat."

"God" pronounced backwards is . . .

Sorry if this isn't new; couldn't find it on Google.


-Rock http://www.rocky-frisco.com
--
Rocky Frisco's LIBERTY website: http://www.liberty-in-our-time.com/
The World's Best Daily News Service: http://www.rationalreview.com/
Rock onstage with JJ Cale and E. Clapton: http://tinyurl.com/3modw
Stevie D
2005-10-23 17:53:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Pratchett
I mean no offence when I say that think you'll find that you added
those nuances yourself, in the light of events last summer -- which
were in the future when Thud! was written.
My gut reaction to the deep-down dwarfs was that they reflected Muslim
life in Britain, and it was a real struggle every time I thought that
to remember that when you wrote the book, the London bombings had not
occurred.

And if you had written the book after they had occurred, you wouldn't
have made any allusion so blatant as these seemed!
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Rob Levandowski
2005-10-12 03:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition.
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would probably
wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.

In America, the phrase "go postal" means roughly "to become homicidally
insane with no apparent warning," or more generally "to become so irate
as to lose reason and tend toward impulsive violence." It's a good
colloquial translation for "go spare" in most respects. It entered the
American lexicon after a number of incidents where U.S. postal workers
went on shooting rampages at their workplaces. To me, "going postal"
has a connotation of being caused in large part by the intolerable or
illogical circumstances in the workplace.

Whether it made sense to make the translation in Thud!...
Post by Brian Wakeling
It would make even less sense if Vimes' thought
continued as "Treat this as a learning exercise. Find out why
the world is not as you thought it was. Assemble the facts,
digest the information, consider the implications. /Then/ go
postal. But with precision."
To an American, that sentence makes perfect sense... aside from the fact
that, unless the Ankh-Morpork Postal Service has had some rather severe
labor issues since we last saw them, it makes no sense for Vimes to use
the phrase.

On the other hand, this time around the new Terry Pratchett book was
prominently displayed at the front of my local (New York state)
bookstore, and had been ordered in quantity. The last time, I had to
drive into the hills to find one small hole-in-the-wall bookshop with
clue. Perhaps it's the price of wider readership. [1]

To me, "...go postal. But with precision." has the connotation of a
Special Forces sniper... or perhaps the U.S. Postal Inspection Service.
Given the concept of "go postal," consider now that the USPIS consists
of postal workers authorized to carry weapons. In fact, postal workers
authorized to carry fully-automatic assault weapons in the course of
their duty[2]. As if the Ankh-Morpork Postal Service hired Detritus.


[1] Then again, where I live, people have difficulty reading even
traffic signs, if their driving habits are any indication. I am
constantly amazed that bookstores around here can stay out of
bankruptcy, let alone thrive.

[2] Their duty consists of apprehending dangerous criminals who abuse
the post, such as drug dealers who send their wares through the mail.
Or people who accept postal money orders for eBay auctions but never
send the goods.
--
Rob Levandowski ***@macwhiz.com
Mart van de Wege
2005-10-12 05:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Levandowski
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition.
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would probably
wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Yet the non-native-English readers around the world seem to have no
problem with it at all, despite not being at home with the idiom
either. Vide the fact that *only* the American edition has to
'translate' it.

Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public consists of
morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb American' contain more
than a grain of truth?

Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
John Wilkins
2005-10-12 06:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mart van de Wege
Post by Rob Levandowski
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition.
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would probably
wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Yet the non-native-English readers around the world seem to have no
problem with it at all, despite not being at home with the idiom
either. Vide the fact that *only* the American edition has to
'translate' it.
Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public consists of
morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb American' contain more
than a grain of truth?
Could it be due to the fact that the USA forms about 2/3rds of the English
speaking world by volume?
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
"Darwin's theory has no more to do with philosophy than any other
hypothesis in natural science." Tractatus 4.1122
Steve Rogers
2005-10-12 09:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilkins
Post by Mart van de Wege
Post by Rob Levandowski
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this
phrase came to have this meaning on the
Discworld. See discussion for _Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it
isn't in the UK edition.
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little
meaning for non-Angophile American readers. Your
average American would probably wonder why Vimes was
thinking about bowling.
Yet the non-native-English readers around the world
seem to have no problem with it at all, despite not
being at home with the idiom either. Vide the fact that
*only* the American edition has to 'translate' it.
Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public
consists of morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb
American' contain more than a grain of truth?
Could it be due to the fact that the USA forms about
2/3rds of the English speaking world by volume?
Asked my wife and she understood "go spare" and equated it to freaking out,
as she's a 21 y.o. Texan who did half of her schooling in Oklahoma, then I
guess if she understands the phrase then it is just the American publishers
being their usual moronic selves and changing something for the sake of
changing it.

Steve
Geoff Field
2005-10-12 10:11:30 UTC
Permalink
John Wilkins wrote:
[snip]
Post by John Wilkins
Could it be due to the fact that the USA forms about 2/3rds of the
English speaking world by volume?
I really hope you meant "by count" rather than "by volume"

OTOH, given the reports we've had of obesity in the US... ;-)

Just in case you missed it: ;-)

AND:

;-)


Geoff
--
Geoff Field
Professional Geek,
Amateur Stage-Levelling Gauge
TheManWhoKnowsLittle
2005-10-18 16:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
[snip]
Post by John Wilkins
Could it be due to the fact that the USA forms about 2/3rds of the
English speaking world by volume?
I really hope you meant "by count" rather than "by volume"
OTOH, given the reports we've had of obesity in the US... ;-)
Just in case you missed it: ;-)
;-)
Geoff
Sorry, but had to laugh at that... very well spotted opportunity and
very well covered ass!
--
*****************************************************************
The more I learn, the more I realise there is that I don't know.
So feel free to enlighten me.
*****************************************************************
emails can be sent to me at the mortgage man 1980 at hotmail dot com.
Mart van de Wege
2005-10-12 10:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilkins
Post by Mart van de Wege
Post by Rob Levandowski
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the UK
edition.
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would
probably wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Yet the non-native-English readers around the world seem to have no
problem with it at all, despite not being at home with the idiom
either. Vide the fact that *only* the American edition has to
'translate' it.
Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public consists of
morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb American' contain more
than a grain of truth?
Could it be due to the fact that the USA forms about 2/3rds of the English
speaking world by volume?
Irrelevant.

The U.S. editions are not 2/3s of Pratchett sales.

Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
rich hammett
2005-10-14 00:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilkins
Post by Mart van de Wege
Post by Rob Levandowski
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition.
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would probably
wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Yet the non-native-English readers around the world seem to have no
problem with it at all, despite not being at home with the idiom
either. Vide the fact that *only* the American edition has to
'translate' it.
Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public consists of
morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb American' contain more
than a grain of truth?
Could it be due to the fact that the USA forms about 2/3rds of the English
speaking world by volume?
MWAAAHAAAHAAA! We demand you translate all of your food, and
food-related substances such as vegemite, into McDonalds.

I know I've read "go spare" in previous US editions of previous
books, and I haven't had any problem understanding what the character,
usually Nobby or Fred, meant by it.

But, as my Merkin acquaintances will tell you, I am not a
typical Merkin. In fact, most of them say I am not Merkin
at all.

rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ The Bill Clinton of RSFC
FiX
2005-10-18 21:42:18 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:50:26 +1000, John Wilkins <***@wilkins.id.au>
wrote:

[...]
Post by John Wilkins
Could it be due to the fact that the USA forms about 2/3rds of the English
speaking world by volume?
Ah yes, as compared to the african or asian English-speaking
countries?

... but we all know that the world consists of Europe and northern
America, don't we? ;-)

FiX
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-12 12:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mart van de Wege
Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public consists of
morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb American' contain more
than a grain of truth?
IME, Americans *are* on average incredibly ignorant, but I'd like to
think that the average non-mainstream book buyer is a little smarter
than the stereotypical dumb American who works at a publishing house.

Regards,
--
*Art
David Jensen
2005-10-12 14:23:50 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:39:03 +0200, in alt.fan.pratchett
Post by Mart van de Wege
Post by Rob Levandowski
Post by Brian Wakeling
Post by e***@gmail.com
52 - "go postal?" - I'm confused as to how this phrase came
to have this meaning on the Discworld. See discussion for
_Going Postal_.
I'm confused as to how you've annotated it, as it isn't in the
UK edition.
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would probably
wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Yet the non-native-English readers around the world seem to have no
problem with it at all, despite not being at home with the idiom
either. Vide the fact that *only* the American edition has to
'translate' it.
Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public consists of
morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb American' contain more
than a grain of truth?
There appears to be plenty of truth to it at HarperCollins. _Thud!_ is
one of the most poorly edited books I have ever had the opportunity to
read.
Arthur Hagen
2005-10-12 15:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Jensen
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:39:03 +0200, in alt.fan.pratchett
Post by Mart van de Wege
Is it merely the publishing houses thinking the public consists of
morons, or does the stereotype of the 'Dumb American' contain more
than a grain of truth?
There appears to be plenty of truth to it at HarperCollins. _Thud!_ is
one of the most poorly edited books I have ever had the opportunity to
read.
Unfortunately, this deflects back on the author. The typical reader
doesn't care about (or even know) who the publisher of any given book
is.

In the case of the Thud! ebook, the "work" by PerfectBound
(HarperCollins) is so horrible that it's an insult to both the readers
and the author. I seriously hope that none of the new readers who
bought it thinks that Terry Pratchett really writes like that.
--
*Art
Stevie D
2005-10-23 11:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Levandowski
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would probably
wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Then they can damn well learn what it means. We have to figure out
what Americans mean in their books and films, and they don't (as a
rule) make any attempt to help us out.
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Diane L
2005-10-23 12:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stevie D
Post by Rob Levandowski
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would
probably wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Then they can damn well learn what it means. We have to figure out
what Americans mean in their books and films, and they don't (as a
rule) make any attempt to help us out.
And, really, why should they? If you're going to read books by an
author from another country you expect it to contain phrases and
concepts that are new to you. That's part of the charm, surely? I
don't expect Raymond Chandler to be rewritten to get rid of phrases
like 'take a powder' or 'broad', or 'raincheck' so I don't have to
think about what they mean or find out for myself. I'd like to bet
that most Americans don't expect books from British authors to
read as though they were American either.

Diane L.
David Jensen
2005-10-23 14:32:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:11:51 +0100, in alt.fan.pratchett
Post by Diane L
Post by Stevie D
Post by Rob Levandowski
The phrase "go spare" would probably have little meaning for
non-Angophile American readers. Your average American would
probably wonder why Vimes was thinking about bowling.
Then they can damn well learn what it means. We have to figure out
what Americans mean in their books and films, and they don't (as a
rule) make any attempt to help us out.
And, really, why should they? If you're going to read books by an
author from another country you expect it to contain phrases and
concepts that are new to you. That's part of the charm, surely? I
don't expect Raymond Chandler to be rewritten to get rid of phrases
like 'take a powder' or 'broad', or 'raincheck' so I don't have to
think about what they mean or find out for myself. I'd like to bet
that most Americans don't expect books from British authors to
read as though they were American either.
I can even tolerate all of the unnecessary 'u's, really. The other
reason not to change the text in PTerry's case is that HarperCollins
appears to be incapable of printing books without introducing
typographical errors.
Cliff
2005-10-23 22:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diane L
I'd like to bet
that most Americans don't expect books from British
authors to
read as though they were American either.
Diane L.
Even though the British authros do not know the difference
between wheat and corn, we can still enjoy their writings.

--
Cliff

"I think it's a difficult, brainracking, overworked, and
thoroughly ungrateful office, and the main bulk of its wages
is a sore heart and a bruised spirit." - Mark Twain, _The
American Claimant_, 1869
David Jensen
2005-10-23 22:16:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:09:56 GMT, in alt.fan.pratchett
Post by Cliff
Post by Diane L
I'd like to bet
that most Americans don't expect books from British
authors to
read as though they were American either.
Diane L.
Even though the British authros do not know the difference
between wheat and corn, we can still enjoy their writings.
Well, the British are willing to read American writers on occasion and
ours seem incapable of distinguishing between maize and corn.
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-10-15 04:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Monday was washday, when the husband was back at the pit and the wife had his
Sunday Best suit ready to wash, along with his spare set of work clothes.
Tuesday was spent ironing, Wednesday cleaning upstairs, Thursday cleaning
downstairs. Friday was cleaning up after the coal delivery (and payday).
Saturday was shopping and all the other little chores, and Sunday was the day
of rest.
In which city/region, and in which century, and what were the social
advantages of having the same chores done on the same day in all
households?

Adrian.
Steve Rogers
2005-10-15 06:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by Brian Wakeling
Monday was washday, when the husband was back at the
pit and the wife had his Sunday Best suit ready to
wash, along with his spare set of work clothes. Tuesday
was spent ironing, Wednesday cleaning upstairs,
Thursday cleaning downstairs. Friday was cleaning up
after the coal delivery (and payday). Saturday was
shopping and all the other little chores, and Sunday
was the day of rest.
In which city/region, and in which century, and what were
the social advantages of having the same chores done on
the same day in all households?
All but more so up the North of England and other mining areas in the end.
Well into the 20th at least and may even still be followed somewhere. Who
knows, but it worked(s) as a rule of thumb to follow for new wives setting
up home for the first time, and continue with, and teach their kids by
example. Note nothing is meantioned about sorting the kids out, cooking,
gossiping ;) or any other activity. Mind you with fewer coal deliveries and
the like now, it now probably means that the woman following this pattern
now has 2 days off a week and can maybe stretch to 3 or 4 with modern
appliances doing away with a lot of the drudgery ;)

Steve
robcraine
2005-10-12 12:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
57 - "Ankh-Morpork is mostly built on Ankh-Morpork" - first
revealed in _The Truth_.
I'd have placed this 'relevation' earlier... Men at Arms?
Post by e***@gmail.com
79 - "giant wooly elephants" - Brick's psychedelic
experiences possibly belie a latent psychic spiritual ability; in this
instance he has seen the distant past.
I was thinking more of Dumbo's Hefalumps (sp?) when I read this
Post by e***@gmail.com
155 - "numknuts" - akin, of course, to nunchaku (popularly
nunchucks), a Chinese flail consisting of two wooden shafts connected
by a chain or cord.
And 'numbnuts' is a vaguely derogatory word... possibly deriving from
the allegation that someone is so stupid that they would not notice if
they were hit in the wossnames
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numbnuts
Post by e***@gmail.com
260 - "the voice of B'hrian Bloodaxe" - see the note for page
29 in _The Fifth Elephant_. Recall that in that book, B'hrian's
reign was fifteen hundred years ago; now it is, apparently, two
thousand.
see Thief of Time ;)
Post by e***@gmail.com
278 - "'Have you ever been up to the attics here, Sam?'
'No!'" - How long has Sam lived in this house, and he still
hasn't seen every room? Compare the Jungian image of the house noted
on page 102.
They are in the watch house in Pseudopolis Yard at this point, IIRC...
and it seems slightly unusual that Vimes hasn't been up in the attic
laying traps for assassins
Post by e***@gmail.com
312 - "It's amazing how the inn's beer helped recovery."
- There are two schools of thought about alcoholism, one that a
recovering alcoholic must never drink again and another that moderation
can be learned. Vimes apparently follows the second school; or
possibly, strong liquor counts differently
I can't see Vimes drinking anything alcoholic... I'd say the beer
helped recovery amongst the rest of the 'men'
Post by e***@gmail.com
361 - "The carvings on Diamond" - made with, er, what?
Other diamonds? - trolls teeth.



With apologies for any duplication... I've tried to avoid it, but I
could have missed some other peoples comments

Rob

--
There are three types of people in the world: those who can count and
those who can't.
Sorcha
2005-10-12 15:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by robcraine
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
278 - "'Have you ever been up to the attics here, Sam?'
'No!'" - How long has Sam lived in this house, and he still
hasn't seen every room? Compare the Jungian image of the house noted
on page 102.
They are in the watch house in Pseudopolis Yard at this point, IIRC...
and it seems slightly unusual that Vimes hasn't been up in the attic
laying traps for assassins
Wasn't this mentioned in the first of the Vimes' shaving scenes? That
the assassins didn't try to get him at work, because there was too
much danger of someone else getting in the way accidentally?

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
Anne B. Nielsen
2005-10-12 17:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by robcraine
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
312 - "It's amazing how the inn's beer helped recovery."
- There are two schools of thought about alcoholism, one that a
recovering alcoholic must never drink again and another that moderation
can be learned. Vimes apparently follows the second school; or
possibly, strong liquor counts differently
I can't see Vimes drinking anything alcoholic... I'd say the beer
helped recovery amongst the rest of the 'men'
That is how I read it as well. As I remember, Vimes was not the one most
affected by the high speed travel.
Post by robcraine
Post by e***@gmail.com
361 - "The carvings on Diamond" - made with, er, what?
Other diamonds? - trolls teeth.
What do you use in RW to cut and polish diamonds?

-Anne
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-10-14 11:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
20 - "Sarsaparilla" - An American soft drink brewed in part
from a bitter aromatic plant of the same name (genus Smilax).
Sarsaparilla is /not/ characteristically American.

There are two soft drinks flavoured with the sarsaparilla plant. One
of those drinks is called sarsaparilla after the plant, and the other
is called root beer. Root beer _is_ characteristically American, but
sarsaparilla isn't.

Sarsaparilla is yummy, provided you avoid artificially flavoured
abominations. Root beer I have never tasted, but I understand that it
is different.

Adrian.
e***@gmail.com
2005-10-15 09:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Sarsaparilla is /not/ characteristically American.
Is too! The plants you make it from don't even grow outside North
America!

You're just jealous of our elite soda skillz.

-- Edmund
Flesh-eating Dragon
2005-10-15 10:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Sarsaparilla is /not/ characteristically American.
Is too! The plants you make it from don't even grow outside North
America!
You're just jealous of our elite soda skillz.
I couldn't tell you where the ingredients are or are not imported
from, but the day that genuine sarsaparilla ceases to be available in
Australian stores is the day that I go on a murderous rampage...

Granted it's not as common as it ought to be - for example, you can't
buy sarsaparilla from a dispensing machine, and nor, just as sadly,
can you buy ginger beer from the same - but it *is* a drink that
Australians are familiar with.

Adrian.
flobert
2005-10-15 16:45:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:44:42 +0930, "Flesh-eating Dragon"
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Sarsaparilla is /not/ characteristically American.
Is too! The plants you make it from don't even grow outside North
America!
north america, some central america, the West indies...

There's only one food-related plant native only to north America, and
thats Cranberries.
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Post by e***@gmail.com
You're just jealous of our elite soda skillz.
Was actually very common as a drink in europe in the 1500's, where it
was used as a medication (uncarbonated, of course) for things like
syphilis.
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
I couldn't tell you where the ingredients are or are not imported
from, but the day that genuine sarsaparilla ceases to be available in
Australian stores is the day that I go on a murderous rampage...
Never been a fan of it myself. I have the occasional Sarsaparilla
flavoured candies, but i couldn't manage a fizzy drink of it.
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Granted it's not as common as it ought to be - for example, you can't
buy sarsaparilla from a dispensing machine, and nor, just as sadly,
can you buy ginger beer from the same - but it *is* a drink that
Australians are familiar with.
Austrilaia, canada, India, most places that have been under european
coloniall rule in the last 300 years in fact. Amazing how many
americans forget that there was nearly 400 years of europe in north
america before a french-led terrorist got his face on lots of paper.
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Adrian.
FiX
2005-10-15 20:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Sarsaparilla is /not/ characteristically American.
Is too! The plants you make it from don't even grow outside North
America!
Nope. Sarsaparilla is _native_ to the american continent, but has long
been acclimated to both Europe and Australia, though I don't think
there's much farming of sarsaparilla in continental Europe nowadays.
But you can easily find some to grow in your garden...

FiX
Rocky Frisco
2005-12-16 00:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by FiX
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Flesh-eating Dragon
Sarsaparilla is /not/ characteristically American.
Is too! The plants you make it from don't even grow outside North
America!
Nope. Sarsaparilla is _native_ to the american continent, but has long
been acclimated to both Europe and Australia, though I don't think
there's much farming of sarsaparilla in continental Europe nowadays.
But you can easily find some to grow in your garden...
S'posed to be good for older men, like Saw Palmetto only different.

-Rock http://www.rocky-frisco.com
--
Rocky Frisco's LIBERTY website: http://www.liberty-in-our-time.com/
The World's Best Daily News Service: http://www.rationalreview.com/
Rock onstage with JJ Cale and E. Clapton: http://tinyurl.com/3modw
Andrew Nevill
2005-10-15 16:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
36 - "Don't Talk to Me About Mondays" - Possibly a collision
of Garfield the Cat's "I hate Mondays" (or the Boomtown Rats'
"I Don't Like Mondays") and Marvin the Paranoid Android's
"Life? Don't talk to me about life."
Surely a reference to an famous incident where a cleaner threw away a bag of
rubbish that was actually part of an art exhibit!

Full story is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3604278.stm

However, briefly it was a work by Gustav Metzger which was displayed in the
Tate Britain in June 2004. - which looked very much like , yeah you guessed,
a bag of rubbish. It was accidentally thrown away by a cleaner who obviously
didn't appreciate it.

The work was "recreated by the artist" after which the Tate covered it over
at night so it would not be thrown away again.

Incidentally, something similar happened to Damien Hirst in 2001.
--
Andrew Nevill B.F. D.W. FdV. Reply address: ***@binternet.com
AFPWorshipper to Spooky, AFPfiance to Sarah (Nanny Ogg) & S*****
AFPUncle to James Vaughan. You cannot value friends as pennies,
nor can you replace them as easily (Spooky in email, Aug 2001.)
Discworld Convention 2006. 18 - 26 Aug 2006 Hanover International
Hotel, Hinckley, UK www.dwcon.org
John Ewing
2005-10-21 23:36:31 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:48:13 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Nevill
Post by Andrew Nevill
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
36 - "Don't Talk to Me About Mondays" - Possibly a collision
of Garfield the Cat's "I hate Mondays" (or the Boomtown Rats'
"I Don't Like Mondays") and Marvin the Paranoid Android's
"Life? Don't talk to me about life."
Surely a reference to an famous incident where a cleaner threw away a bag of
rubbish that was actually part of an art exhibit!
Full story is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3604278.stm
However, briefly it was a work by Gustav Metzger which was displayed in the
Tate Britain in June 2004. - which looked very much like , yeah you guessed,
a bag of rubbish. It was accidentally thrown away by a cleaner who obviously
didn't appreciate it.
The work was "recreated by the artist" after which the Tate covered it over
at night so it would not be thrown away again.
Incidentally, something similar happened to Damien Hirst in 2001.
What, someone threw Damien Hirst away? I live in hope.

John
--
John Ewing
Glaschu / Glasgow
Alba / Scotland
Richard Bos
2005-10-21 23:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Or perhaps not, since anybody who's actually seen that (rather large,
and quite beautiful) painting knows that in it Venus does not acutally
arise from anything, but arrives at a shore standing on a floating
shell. The now popular title is from the 19th century. It _may_,
however, refer to the myth, and any or all of the other paintings, that
do portray her as arising from the sea spray. But not Alessandro
Filipepi's painting, because it doesn't.
Post by e***@gmail.com
66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch increases
parallels between Dwarfish culture in Ankh-Morpork and Arabic culture
in Europe.
I cannot be the only one to whom the Deep-Downs resemble the more
fanatical adherents of Judaism, instead. Or perhaps as well.
Post by e***@gmail.com
70 - "small deer" -Ardent may mean "deer" in its more
archaic sense of any forest-dwelling creature.
May it? In which language? It's not in my SOED.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "metamorphorical rock" - another portmanteau: of
"metamorphic", as in rock that changes under intense pressure and
heat; and "metaphorical".
Oh, come on... That's not a portmanteau, that's a grammatical variation.
Post by e***@gmail.com
96 - "They were baaad trolls. At least, they'd like everyone to
think so." - Many of the street gangs in United States history were
ethnic in origin and competed primarily with gangs of other
ethnicities.
And many of the street gangs in less insalubrious parts of Europe are
not _quite_ as bad as those in, say, erstwhile downtown LA or NY, but
would very much like to pretend to be so.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "who had never drifted close to a major accretion..." -
Compare the origin of gods in _Small Gods_ and the notion of inspirons
in _Men at Arms_.
Funnily, but probably irrelevantly, an accretion is also a kind of rock
formation.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "Humans would have gone insane living like that..." -
The 2003 novel _Coalescent_ by Stephen Baxter describes the society of
humans living in just such circumstances.
So do earlier ones, not always with the same result. Trantor, e.g.
Post by e***@gmail.com
149 - "It didn't get political on you" - Recall that the plot
in _Guards, Guards!_ was explicitly political, concerning a conspiracy
to replace Vetinari.
Yes, but it didn't get political _on Vimes_. There was a political
background, but all he had to do was a. get rid of the dragon and b.
solve the underlying crime. The actual politics were dealt with by
others.
Post by e***@gmail.com
166 footnote - "Empirical Crescent...all this by accident." -
It is notable that B.S. Johnson's works, which started out as merely
inept in earlier books, have developed into quasi-magical perversions
of the very fabric of space and time. Compare also Robert Heinlein's
1941 short story "-And He Built A Crooked House-".
Compare, perhaps rather more, the warped geometry in Lovecraft's
universe.
Post by e***@gmail.com
181 - "nobody would be interested in an exotic dancer with a name
like Betty." - Note the popularity, and especially the popular
rediscovery in the past few years, of exotic dancer and model Bettie
Page, recognized as an icon of alternative sexuality.
Also Berry Boop.
Post by e***@gmail.com
193 - "pull der other one, it is havin' bells on." - it might
be interesting, or at least pleasingly obsesssssssive, to compile a
list of all the times this phrase or its variants appear in Discworld.
Ordinary British vernacular, surely?

Richard
John Ewing
2005-10-22 01:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Bos
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Or perhaps not, since anybody who's actually seen that (rather large,
and quite beautiful) painting knows that in it Venus does not acutally
arise from anything, but arrives at a shore standing on a floating
shell. The now popular title is from the 19th century. It _may_,
however, refer to the myth, and any or all of the other paintings, that
do portray her as arising from the sea spray. But not Alessandro
Filipepi's painting, because it doesn't.
Perhaps Titian's Venus Anadyomene (Venus Emerging from the Sea),
which can be seen here:
http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collections/top_ten_search.php?searchMode=6&objectId=8687
(or better yet, go to Edinburgh and see the actual painting)

John
--
John Ewing
Glaschu / Glasgow
Alba / Scotland
Dave
2005-10-22 12:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
Post by Richard Bos
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Or perhaps not, since anybody who's actually seen that (rather large,
and quite beautiful) painting knows that in it Venus does not acutally
arise from anything, but arrives at a shore standing on a floating
shell. The now popular title is from the 19th century. It _may_,
however, refer to the myth, and any or all of the other paintings, that
do portray her as arising from the sea spray. But not Alessandro
Filipepi's painting, because it doesn't.
Perhaps Titian's Venus Anadyomene (Venus Emerging from the Sea),
http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collections/top_ten_search.php?searchMode=6&objectId=8687
(or better yet, go to Edinburgh and see the actual painting)
If you like visual humour there is the Don Martin [1] version of the
Bottcelli painting. Warning *this is the visual equivalent of Elmer
Fudd singing "Kill the Wabbit"*

Loading Image...

Although I much prefer American Gothic
Loading Image...

[1] Mad magazine
--
Large Dave
This sig deliberately left blank.
Sorcha
2005-10-22 18:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
Post by Richard Bos
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Or perhaps not, since anybody who's actually seen that (rather large,
and quite beautiful) painting knows that in it Venus does not acutally
arise from anything, but arrives at a shore standing on a floating
shell. The now popular title is from the 19th century. It _may_,
however, refer to the myth, and any or all of the other paintings, that
do portray her as arising from the sea spray. But not Alessandro
Filipepi's painting, because it doesn't.
Perhaps Titian's Venus Anadyomene (Venus Emerging from the Sea),
http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collections/top_ten_search.php?searchMode=6&objectId=8687
(or better yet, go to Edinburgh and see the actual painting)
A much more lovely painting than Botticelli, to be honest. Is
_lovlier_ a proper word? It should be, because it is even more so
than the shell painting.

Although now I have a nasty vision of Anoia wringing cutlery from her
hair...

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
John Ewing
2005-10-23 16:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcha
Post by John Ewing
Post by Richard Bos
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Or perhaps not, since anybody who's actually seen that (rather large,
and quite beautiful) painting knows that in it Venus does not acutally
arise from anything, but arrives at a shore standing on a floating
shell. The now popular title is from the 19th century. It _may_,
however, refer to the myth, and any or all of the other paintings, that
do portray her as arising from the sea spray. But not Alessandro
Filipepi's painting, because it doesn't.
Perhaps Titian's Venus Anadyomene (Venus Emerging from the Sea),
http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collections/top_ten_search.php?searchMode=6&objectId=8687
(or better yet, go to Edinburgh and see the actual painting)
A much more lovely painting than Botticelli, to be honest. Is
_lovlier_ a proper word? It should be,
lovelier
Post by Sorcha
because it is even more so than the shell painting.
The website image doesn't do justice to the picture.
Post by Sorcha
Although now I have a nasty vision of Anoia wringing cutlery from her
hair...
Hmm...

John
--
John Ewing
Glaschu / Glasgow
Alba / Scotland
Richard Bos
2005-10-23 22:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sorcha
Post by John Ewing
Post by Richard Bos
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Or perhaps not, since anybody who's actually seen that (rather large,
and quite beautiful) painting knows that in it Venus does not acutally
arise from anything, but arrives at a shore standing on a floating
shell. The now popular title is from the 19th century. It _may_,
however, refer to the myth, and any or all of the other paintings, that
do portray her as arising from the sea spray. But not Alessandro
Filipepi's painting, because it doesn't.
Perhaps Titian's Venus Anadyomene (Venus Emerging from the Sea),
http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collections/top_ten_search.php?searchMode=6&objectId=8687
(or better yet, go to Edinburgh and see the actual painting)
A much more lovely painting than Botticelli, to be honest. Is
_lovlier_ a proper word? It should be, because it is even more so
than the shell painting.
"Lovelier", I think. But I disagree, because I'm rather fond of Sandro's
work. The Titian is good; but Botticelli is better.
As for Anoia Arising from Cutlery, I think it would be easier to do a
parody based on the Ingres one, with the cutlery replacing the cupids.

Richard

Richard Bos
2005-10-23 22:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ewing
Post by Richard Bos
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
40 - "The Goddess Anoia Arising from the Cutlery" - clearly
similar to Sandro Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus". Anoia first
appears in _Going Postal_.
Or perhaps not, since anybody who's actually seen that (rather large,
and quite beautiful) painting knows that in it Venus does not acutally
arise from anything, but arrives at a shore standing on a floating
shell. The now popular title is from the 19th century. It _may_,
however, refer to the myth, and any or all of the other paintings, that
do portray her as arising from the sea spray. But not Alessandro
Filipepi's painting, because it doesn't.
Perhaps Titian's Venus Anadyomene (Venus Emerging from the Sea),
http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collections/top_ten_search.php?searchMode=6&objectId=8687
Yes, or the Ingres one.
Post by John Ewing
(or better yet, go to Edinburgh and see the actual painting)
Actually, next year's holiday is probably going to be either that, or to
Paris and a detour to Chantilly to see the Tres Riches Heures du Duc de
Berry.

And on the subject of the latter: any Dutchman, or anyone coming to the
Netherlands, interested in such matters, yes, the current exhibition in
Nijmegen, of the Belles Heures and other matter relating to the brothers
Van Limburg, is very much worth seeing. The way they've been able to
exhibit the pages is unique, thanks to some timely re-binding plans. A
must-see for anybody interested in calligraphy and book decoration.

Richard
Torak
2005-10-22 20:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Bos
Post by e***@gmail.com
66 - "Dwarfs made good coffee" - This little touch increases
parallels between Dwarfish culture in Ankh-Morpork and Arabic culture
in Europe.
I cannot be the only one to whom the Deep-Downs resemble the more
fanatical adherents of Judaism, instead. Or perhaps as well.
Both, I'd say. And, indeed, the particularly fanatical Christians. It's
the same religion, after all, just spelled differently.

Certainly the Hamcrusher character struck me as a "rabid mullah"
perallel; particularly the rhetoric and the name. After all, "ham" is
in some places (though I can't remember where, right now) slang for "a
hand", and someone whose hand has been crushed could very well end up
with a hand similar to that of Abu Ham...za. Or am I over-stretching?
Anke
2005-10-23 18:02:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Annotations for "Thud!" by Terry Pratchett
By Edmund Schluessel
These annotations are indexed to the US-published Harper-Collins 1st
Edition, released 13 September 2005, ISBN-10: 0-06-081522-1 (alk.
paper), ISBN-13: 978-0-06-081522-6.
and
now
here
comes
a
modicum
of
spoiler
space!
1 - "Sam Vimes shaved himself." - Possibly a synthesis of the
well-known logical paradox "the barber shaves all those who do not
shave themselves; who shaves the barber?" and the question stated
many times in this book, "who watches the watchers?"
I think it's explained in the last two watch books (if not more) why
Vimes shaves himself, and it's no problem for a man to shave himself,
provided he has a razor and a mirror, so I think you're reading too
much into it.
Post by e***@gmail.com
9 - "Do you know Mr. John Smith?" - the popular British
character of the Doctor in _Dr. Who_ occasionally goes by "Doctor
John Smith", and has worn colourful vests in many of his
incarnations. Compare also the vampires playing at being everyday
humans in _Carpe Jugulum_.
Black ribboners are encouraged to change their names to normal ones,
and John Smith is as normal as it gets. They're also encouraged to
wear colourful clothes, because it goes counter to the "opera suit"
cliché. He's also mentioned in the Reformed Vampire's Diary.
Post by e***@gmail.com
12 - "Count Vargo St. Gruet von Vilinus!" - one of the battles
of Koom Valley took place in Vilinus Pass.
And?
Post by e***@gmail.com
23 - "The parades were okay" - in Northern Ireland,
nationalistic parades by both sides were once quite common both as a
display of pride and as a means of intimidation.
Just curious: When did they stop?
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid - "pole-dancing" - the mazurka, a lively dance originating
in the Masurian Lakes region of northeastern Poland and performed in
3/4 time.
Assuming that "pole-dancing" in a _strip club_ has anything to do with
Polish folk dance seems ridiculous to me. Sorry.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "You're not supposed to put it anywhere, Sarge." - a
common rule of ecdysiastic establishments is an admonition against
touching the dancers.
Why would that need an annotation? Do you think "stealing is illegal"
would be a necessary annotation when a theft is concerned?
Strippers aren't whores.
Post by e***@gmail.com
44 - "She had short hair...a girl who wouldn't mind passing for
one" - Sally may be written with some lesbian subtext. Contrast
Maledicta from _Monstrous Regiment_.
...
Funny you didn't connect the bananas you pointed out several times
to "gay subtext", or somesuch nonsense.
Consider that she seemed to have quite a liking for Carrot, will you.
Post by e***@gmail.com
57 - "Ankh-Morpork is mostly built on Ankh-Morpork" - first
revealed in _The Truth_.
I'm pretty sure it's older. Men at Arms at least.
Post by e***@gmail.com
58 - "where does that lead?" - Vimes' resolution to avoid
taking the first step down a slippery slope is another theme developed
in this book.
I thought annotations were about pointing out references to real life
or other books, not "You must interpret books, you may not just enjoy
them!" stuff.
Post by e***@gmail.com
65 - "daylight face" - Helmclever, like Fred Colon, is a
liaison officer.
huh?
Post by e***@gmail.com
71 - "you're undermining my city?" - Quite literally; watch
this metaphor.
What metaphor? The dwarfs are digging under the city.
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. - "The brighter the light the blacker the shadow?" -
compare the "dark light" of _The Truth_.
Or "where there's light, there's shadow"... I'm pretty sure
it's been mentioned in another book, in reference to Ankh Morpork
and the Shades, but I can't remember in which book.
Post by e***@gmail.com
96 - "They were baaad trolls. At least, they'd like everyone to
think so." - Many of the street gangs in United States history were
ethnic in origin and competed primarily with gangs of other
ethnicities.
What does that quote have to do with what you said?
Post by e***@gmail.com
169 - "Do you know how many bats I have to become..." - Compare
"borrowing", especially that of a swarm of bees as described in
_Lords & Ladies_. Also note that the average vampire bat doesn't
weigh more than a few ounces; so a hundred and fifty *might* just
barely weigh 40 pounds.
Didn't the vampires in Carpe Jugulum turn into flocks of magpies?
Post by e***@gmail.com
171 - "A paying audience?" - Pterry may, in this passage, be
playing with the slash fiction community reading this book.
I agree with whoever it was who pointed out mud wrestling, since
slash fiction is generally available for free.
Post by e***@gmail.com
183 - "Lance Constable von Humpeding needs an apple, urgently."
- see note for page 85. It has to mean *something*, dammit.
A vampire under stress wants to bite something. They can bite
apples without getting in trouble. Has been mentioned before, in The
Truth, I think, as well as in the Vampire's Diary.
Don't try to force symbolical meanings on everything, it's not
healthy.
Post by e***@gmail.com
211 - "Are you telling me you're two people? With one body?"
Someone else pointed out Altogether Andrews, I can point out
Lunch in Dragonball, someone whose name I forgot in Mister Zinpangu,
from what I've heard Kenshin... I'd call it a cliché.
Post by e***@gmail.com
229 - "two iron boots were cooling from white heat in a puddle of
molten sand." - There's a Bond film where an evil female villain
is killed with some kind of projectile explosive, leaving only a pair
of smoking high heels, but I can't remember the details. Also compare
the vaporization of victims in _Guards, Guards!_.
As others pointed out, another cliché. FWIW: The first thing I thought
of when reading it out of context here was the end of "Snow White".
Post by e***@gmail.com
Ibid. footnote - "He was just puzzled at the suggestion that he was
there to do the food a favor." - compare the Dish of the Day in
Douglas Adams' _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_.
What's with it?
Post by e***@gmail.com
295 - "It was slow, but never stopped following." - Compare Mr.
Pump's steady, relentless pursuit in _Going Postal_.
It's older, even just inside Discworld. Rincewind thought that
about Luggage, I think in Light Fantastic, if not there, then in
Colour of Magic.
Post by e***@gmail.com
354 - "he spoke fluent Chicken" - possibly a reference to the
surreal webcomic _The Parking Lot Is Full_, which featured one
strip in which civilization is ended by a linguist who invents a
language called "Chicken".
I'll believe that if Terry ever confirms it. Otherwise: Angua
speaks wolf. Gaspode speaks dog. Chickens speak chicken.
Post by e***@gmail.com
359 - "It would be a lot simpler...if this was a story." - See
note for page 328.
It's a cliché that seems to be included in every second book
I read.

There were some very interesting annotations (e.g. the ones
about diamonds and sedan chairs), but some were too short (for
example the one where you assume everyone knows the Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy books by heart...), and some sound really
far-fetched to me.

~Anke
Stevie D
2005-10-23 21:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anke
There were some very interesting annotations (e.g. the ones
about diamonds and sedan chairs), but some .... sound really
far-fetched to me.
I have to say that I agree. It struck me very much as someone looking
for every possible hint of an annotation they could possibly find, and
looking a bit too hard, at that.

A slight resonance with an idea that you half-remember from a song
about a book you heard when you were 6 years old and on holiday in
Taiwan does not an annotation make.
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
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