[R] Question for Germans and linguists

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

I'm rereading GP. At one point Vetinari, waxing philosophic about freedom,
notes that Freidegger[1] claims true freedom would drive a person mad, and
compares it to the state he calls
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit". While this is obviously a
parody of big long German words made by slamming other words together, I
was wondering if it actually meant anything, even in "dog German"? (I've
tentatively translated the first bit as "of all people", and I think
"understand" is in their somewhere, but beyond that I've no idea).

Also, could any philosophy students tell me whether Bouffant, whose work V
contrasts with Freidegger, has a similarly parodic name?

[1]Presumably the DW version of Heidegger, and equally capable of thinking
one under the table...

[Len Oil]

Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit".

I thought about this at the time, and referred to my dictionary. I had
it down as something like "From all people[1]comes unintelligent
[nonsense]".

I had in mind that it was a (para)phrasing of some kind that I might
know if only I knew more practical /and/ philosophical German. It
wouldn't be too unimaginative to imagine the literal word "nonsense"
actually does sit in there, perhaps by way of a colloquialism.


But perhaps it's too precipitous to post this idea, me being not too far
from devout monoglottism, given how soon there will surely be a post
from the land where the world experts on German[2] reside.


[1] Running it together a little from "volk[s]" and "kommen".

[nonsense] The best I could do literally was "the the
<notfoundinmydictionary". I remember trying to disentangle various
words from that area, but I never found anything relating to "skeit",
"keit" or some use of "dasdas", which I did suspect (without foundation)
was an emphasised "the" such as in "not just /aye/ president, /thee/
President".

[2] The Austrians..? ;)

[Jeroen Wenting]

Post by Len Oil
[1] Running it together a little from "volk[s]" and "kommen".
[nonsense] The best I could do literally was "the the
<notfoundinmydictionary". I remember trying to disentangle various words
from that area, but I never found anything relating to "skeit", "keit" or
some use of "dasdas", which I did suspect (without foundation) was an
emphasised "the" such as in "not just /aye/ president, /thee/ President".

"keit" or "skeit" has the same function in German when appended to a word as
does "ness" (as in "sameness") in English.

[Sabremeister Brian]

In a speech called

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I'm rereading GP. At one point Vetinari, waxing philosophic
about freedom, notes that Freidegger[1] claims true freedom
would drive a person mad, and compares it to the state he calls
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit". While this is
obviously a parody of big long German words made by slamming
other words together, I was wondering if it actually meant
anything, even in "dog German"? (I've tentatively translated
the first bit as "of all people", and I think "understand" is
in their somewhere, but beyond that I've no idea).

"Of all the people come to understand the the thing". Roughly.
Probably more likely to be "When" rather than "Of", in a
philosophical-concept wossname, but the German for "when" either
didn't sound Germanic enough at the start of that, or it would
have required linguistic contortions that English-speakers aren't
used to.

The ovrerall word is probably Freidegger's understanding of the
concept of knurd, as applied to absolutely everybody, not just
Vimes and certain Klatchians.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Also, could any philosophy students tell me whether Bouffant,
whose work V contrasts with Freidegger, has a similarly parodic
name?
[1]Presumably the DW version of Heidegger, and equally capable
of thinking one under the table...

Well, bouffant is a type of hair style, and there is such a thing
as a lock of hair, and John Locke was an important English
philosopher (according to Wikipedia). He postulated the tabula
rasa theory - people have blank minds, they have no innate ideas,
they must formulate their own.

[John Wilkins]

Post by Sabremeister Brian
In a speech called

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I'm rereading GP. At one point Vetinari, waxing philosophic
about freedom, notes that Freidegger[1] claims true freedom
would drive a person mad, and compares it to the state he calls
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit". While this is
obviously a parody of big long German words made by slamming
other words together, I was wondering if it actually meant
anything, even in "dog German"? (I've tentatively translated
the first bit as "of all people", and I think "understand" is
in their somewhere, but beyond that I've no idea).

"Of all the people come to understand the the thing". Roughly.

You left out the "un" before "verstandlich" so:

"Of all people come misunderstood that thatness".

It actually sounds like Heidegger...

Post by Sabremeister Brian
Probably more likely to be "When" rather than "Of", in a
philosophical-concept wossname, but the German for "when" either
didn't sound Germanic enough at the start of that, or it would
have required linguistic contortions that English-speakers aren't
used to.
The ovrerall word is probably Freidegger's understanding of the
concept of knurd, as applied to absolutely everybody, not just
Vimes and certain Klatchians.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Also, could any philosophy students tell me whether Bouffant,
whose work V contrasts with Freidegger, has a similarly parodic
name?
[1]Presumably the DW version of Heidegger, and equally capable
of thinking one under the table...

Well, bouffant is a type of hair style, and there is such a thing
as a lock of hair, and John Locke was an important English
philosopher (according to Wikipedia). He postulated the tabula
rasa theory - people have blank minds, they have no innate ideas,
they must formulate their own.

There was also the French naturalist Buffon, whose ideas were enormously
influential, but not much on philosophers. Ironically, he was himself
influenced by Locke.

[Elliott Grasett]

John Wilkins wrote:

<snip>

Post by John Wilkins
There was also the French naturalist Buffon, whose ideas were enormously
influential, but not much on philosophers. Ironically, he was himself
influenced by Locke.

Isn't he the one George Bernard Shaw referred to as
"the celebrated Buffoon"?

[John Wilkins]

Post by Elliott Grasett
<snip>

Post by John Wilkins
There was also the French naturalist Buffon, whose ideas were enormously
influential, but not much on philosophers. Ironically, he was himself
influenced by Locke.

Isn't he the one George Bernard Shaw referred to as
"the celebrated Buffoon"?

Yes, in Back to Methuselah, if I recall correctly. But it turned out
that Buffoon was the name of a Commedia del Arte character well before
Georges Louis le Clerc was made Comte de Buffon.

[Thomas Zahr]

Post by Sabremeister Brian
In a speech called

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I'm rereading GP. At one point Vetinari, waxing
philosophic about freedom, notes that Freidegger[1] claims
true freedom would drive a person mad, and compares it to
the state he calls
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit". While this is
obviously a parody of big long German words made by
slamming other words together, I was wondering if it
actually meant anything, even in "dog German"? (I've
tentatively translated the first bit as "of all people",
and I think "understand" is in their somewhere, but beyond
that I've no idea).

"Of all the people come to understand the the thing".
Roughly. Probably more likely to be "When" rather than
"Of", in a philosophical-concept wossname, but the German
for "when" either didn't sound Germanic enough at the start
of that, or it would have required linguistic contortions
that English-speakers aren't used to.

You're taking some liberties here ... anyway, it starts with: From everything

[Nisaba Merrieweather]

G'dday.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit". While this is obviously a
parody of big long German words made by slamming other words together, I
was wondering if it actually meant anything, even in "dog German"?

I command less than nothing of the language, but 50% pure German DNA
compells me to get loud:

Von - from
alles - all
volk - people
kommen - to come
unverstandlich - understandingly
das - the
daskeit - your guess is as good as mine.

The word I like best, compared with its English translation, is the word for
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally work-loss-under-support). I
love the idea of one meaning being expressed, depending on language, but a
very short word or a very long one. I am easily amused.

[Winterbay]

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
G'dday.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit". While this is obviously a
parody of big long German words made by slamming other words together, I
was wondering if it actually meant anything, even in "dog German"?

I command less than nothing of the language, but 50% pure German DNA
Von - from
alles - all
volk - people
kommen - to come
unverstandlich - understandingly

Ehmm. No. My dictionary gives me this word (allthough with an umlaut so
"unverständlich") as "incomprehensible".

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
das - the
daskeit - your guess is as good as mine.

Well yes, here even my Duden Universalwörterbuch fails me. It's probably
just added to get the typical German ending to some words.

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
The word I like best, compared with its English translation, is the word for
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally work-loss-under-support). I
love the idea of one meaning being expressed, depending on language, but a
very short word or a very long one. I am easily amused.

I like the word for "small matchbox" - "streichholzsatchelchen" which
apart from being longer then the English word is also almost completely
impossible to pronounce even unless you practice a lot...

/Winterbay

[Thomas Zahr]

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
G'dday.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit".

Von - from
alles - all
volk - people
kommen - to come
unverstandlich - understandingly
das - the
daskeit - your guess is as good as mine.

Erm, no

Von - from
alles - all, in the sense of everything
volkommen - apart from the typo, there should be two l's, it mens perfect, complete
unverstandlich - unintelligible (spelling optional)
das - that, probably more appropriate here
das - see above
keit - turns an adverb into a noun

[Thorsten Michels]

Hello from Germany,

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit". While this is obviously a
parody of big long German words made by slamming other words together, I
was wondering if it actually meant anything, even in "dog German"?

Is this really in GP? It's been a while since I read it. I think I have
to reread it.

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
Von - from

or 'of'

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
alles - all

or 'everything'

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
volk - people
kommen - to come

You put in an additional 'k', but I think there should have been an
additional 'l': vollkommen, which means entirely, completely or
perfectly.

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
unverstandlich - understandingly

No, it's 'incomprehensible'. BTW the dots from the Umlaut seem to have
rolled away again. It should have been 'unverständlich'.

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
das - the
daskeit - your guess is as good as mine.

There's no such word in German, but -keit is a typical syllable at the
end of a word, roughly like -ity.

So I would translate it as
Ofeverythingcompletlyincomprehensiblethetheity.

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
The word I like best, compared with its English translation, is the word for
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally work-loss-under-support). I
love the idea of one meaning being expressed, depending on language, but a
very short word or a very long one. I am easily amused.

But why such a sad subject? How about Trockenbeerenauslese?

Greetings,
Thorsten

[Richard Bos]

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
The word I like best, compared with its English translation, is the word for
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally work-loss-under-support).

Job_less_-support. Work-loss would be Arbeitsverlust; arbeitslos means
"without work", and Arbeitslose is the nominification of that adjective,
so it means "someone without work", "the unemployed". And Stuetzung
usually just means support in the most literal meaning; the normal word
for support in the metaphorical meanings (and also for many of the
physical meanings) _is_, IME, Unterstuetzung.

Richard

[Thomas Zahr]

Post by Richard Bos

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
The word I like best, compared with its English
translation, is the word for "dole" -
Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally
work-loss-under-support).

Job_less_-support. Work-loss would be Arbeitsverlust;
arbeitslos means "without work", and Arbeitslose is the
nominification of that adjective, so it means "someone
without work", "the unemployed". And Stuetzung usually just
means support in the most literal meaning; the normal word
for support in the metaphorical meanings (and also for many
of the physical meanings) _is_, IME, Unterstuetzung.

Good translation ;-)

[Graycat]

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
The word I like best, compared with its English translation, is the word for
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally work-loss-under-support). I
love the idea of one meaning being expressed, depending on language, but a
very short word or a very long one. I am easily amused.

I'm pretty sure there is a longer English term for this too -
unemployment benefits or something like that :o)

In Swedish we have "arbetslöshetsersättning", but people usually call
it "a-kassa".

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by Graycat

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
The word I like best, compared with its English translation, is the word for
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally work-loss-under-support). I
love the idea of one meaning being expressed, depending on language, but a
very short word or a very long one. I am easily amused.

I'm pretty sure there is a longer English term for this too -
unemployment benefits or something like that :o)

But we have refined it into something like a list of six
possibilities.
Jobseekersallowance for example.

Getting worked up about the differences in the
nothingnessesbetweenwordsbetweenlanguages just about sums up this
group's activities, when it isn't insulting thedenizensofNorthAmerica
for living there.

[Lister]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 03:44:12 -0800 (PST), Weatherlawyer
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:
Cunning linguists? :)

*runs*

[E.S.]

Post by Lister
Cunning linguists? :)
*runs*

You'd better do it damned fast!

[E.S.]

Post by E.S.

Post by Lister
Cunning linguists? :)
*runs*

You'd better do it damned fast!

And I wish to state that I was referring to running, not to the study
of languages, clever or otherwise.

[Lesley Weston]

Post by E.S.

Post by Lister
Cunning linguists? :)
*runs*

You'd better do it damned fast!

No comment.

[Orjan Westin]

Post by Weatherlawyer
Getting worked up about the differences in the
nothingnessesbetweenwordsbetweenlanguages just about sums up this
group's activities, when it isn't insulting thedenizensofNorthAmerica
for living there.

So, which of the two do you enjoy most?

Orjan

[unknown]

Post by Graycat

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
The word I like best, compared with its English translation, is the word for
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung" (literally work-loss-under-support). I
love the idea of one meaning being expressed, depending on language, but a
very short word or a very long one. I am easily amused.

And a shorter one: In northwest Ireland dole is called bru.

Post by Graycat
I'm pretty sure there is a longer English term for this too -
unemployment benefits or something like that :o)
In Swedish we have "arbetslöshetsersättning", but people usually call
it "a-kassa".

[Michael Huber]

Post by Nisaba Merrieweather
"dole" - Arbeitslosenunterstuetzung

Actually, the words normally used for dole are "Arbeitslosengeld"
r "Arbeitslosenhilfe" (Arbeitsloser: unemployed person; Geld: money; Hilfe:
help, support). While Arbeitslosenunterstützung is perfectly intelligeble
and doesn't even sound strange to German ears, I haven't actually heard it
being used. Of course, I could be out of touch, as thankfully,
unemployement is not an issue in either my friends' or my life.

[Thomas Zahr]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit"

"From everything complete/perferct
unintelligible/incomprehensible that that ty (keit just turns
it into a noun)"

[Gift]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit".

not so litterary translated : oblivious to everything (more litterary : of
everything completly unconprehensive "thatthatness")

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

Post by Gift

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit".

not so litterary translated : oblivious to everything (more litterary
: of everything completly unconprehensive "thatthatness")

But that strikes me as the state most people have all the time, especially
in Discworld novels. I'd have thought, based on previous books, that a
Discworldly philospher would be more likely to suggest a state that drove
people mad would be *awareness* of everything.

[Anery]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Gift

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit".

not so litterary translated : oblivious to everything (more litterary
: of everything completly unconprehensive "thatthatness")

But that strikes me as the state most people have all the time, especially
in Discworld novels. I'd have thought, based on previous books, that a
Discworldly philospher would be more likely to suggest a state that drove
people mad would be *awareness* of everything.

I wouldn't say "oblivious". I've understood it rather as an urgent
feeling (or indeed awareness) of the utter incomprehensibility of the
world and, being given freedom, a necessity to deal with that
incomprehensible world. The "-thatthat-" might be interpreted as an
expression of increasing confusion, while thinking about the matter.

So something like "everything-being-completely-incomprehensible-and-
all-that-ness".

Anery

[Gift]

Post by Anery

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Gift

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit".

not so litterary translated : oblivious to everything (more litterary
: of everything completly unconprehensive "thatthatness")

But that strikes me as the state most people have all the time, especially
in Discworld novels. I'd have thought, based on previous books, that a
Discworldly philospher would be more likely to suggest a state that drove
people mad would be *awareness* of everything.

I wouldn't say "oblivious". I've understood it rather as an urgent
feeling (or indeed awareness) of the utter incomprehensibility of the
world and, being given freedom, a necessity to deal with that
incomprehensible world. The "-thatthat-" might be interpreted as an
expression of increasing confusion, while thinking about the matter.
So something like "everything-being-completely-incomprehensible-and-
all-that-ness".

That's about correct, the whole thing just means "incomprehensible"

Considering it's a pun on Heidegger, the "dasdaskeit" is probably a pun on
"dasein" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasein) : human excistence (vs.
objects, that are simply "present")
..which led to my least favourite examination question of all time: "Explain
: I am the da in dasein"

[Arthur Hagen]

Post by Gift

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
"Vonallesvolkommenunverstandlichdasdaskeit".

not so litterary translated : oblivious to everything (more litterary
: of everything completly unconprehensive "thatthatness")

While English doesn't have 'thatthatness', it has 'isness' and
'nessnessness'[1].

[1]: The strange compulsion to describe everything with -ness. Sorry, I
mean the willingness of strangeness to, with obliqueness, utilise -ness in
your descriptiveness.

Regards,